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Does creating a sentient being give you the right to mistreat it?

#41bratt100Posted 2/1/2013 12:39:38 AM
Julian_Caesar posted...
From: bratt100 | #038
He's the protagonist...that does not make him good. Patrick Bateman was the protagonist and he was also the bad guy.


Being the protagonist does not make any protagonist good, no. But in the case of the Bible, it explicitly states that God (its "protagonist") is morally perfect and beyond our reproach. This is a far different situation from that of Patrick Bateman, who was never presented as morally perfect.


And yet based on his actions he is very much a "bad guy" and his actions show that. You may not think you are qualified to judge him but I sure am because I have a conscience and a decent understanding of right and wrong.

God is like Hitler where they where right in the eyes of there followers but so fantastically wrong from everyone else's perspective that it's not even worth defending it.
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#42hunter_gohanPosted 2/1/2013 1:33:07 PM
Julian_Caesar posted...
I'm not so sure making an analogy between the Ori and God is a very reasonable connection. At least, not when specifically referring to the God of the Bible. For one thing, the Ori didn't create the Stargate universe, at least not according to in-universe "canon." Whereas the "canon" of the Bible universe is that God created everything.


And in the "canon" of the Book of Origin, yes the Ori did create the universe. Like I said, they lied a lot in their holy book. And, I'm not entirely sure, but I think they did actually create the humans in that galaxy and the Ancients created us in the Milky Way and Pegasus. That would explain why there are humans in 3 different galaxies that not only look identical to the Altarans, but were close enough biologically to interbreed.

In fact yes, yes they did.

"Humans originated in a distant galaxy evolved into the Alterans, who later became the Ancients and the Ori. The Ancients later seeded the Milky Way and Pegasus galaxies (probably more) with Humans, as both galaxies seemed to be devoid of sentient life. The Ori later created a new evolution of Humans that served as their worshipers. "
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Human

So this thread actually is directly related to the Ori. Did they have the right to do as they wished with the humans that they created? Or would you like to go with special pleading so only your deity is special enough to do that.

Again...you're referring to "actions" which are recounted within a text which explicitly states that God is beyond moral reproach. Whereas the actions of the Ori are recounted within a script which explicitly states that they are not beyond moral reproach. That's the difference. In terms of "canon" God is way more akin to the Ancients than the Ori, because He is good "within the canon."


I wouldn't exactly call the ancients good either(Save a few, Ohma Desala, Orlon, Merlin, Morgan La Faye etc). Look at it as if you were in that universe though. If we were both on an Ori planet. We'd be having this exact same conversation(well until I get burned to death) with you defending the Ori and pointing to the Book of Origin saying the exact same things you're saying here.

No, its an argument from assumption. If God exists the way the Bible says, then He needs no justification beyond His Existence and we are not qualified to judge.


If I exist in the way my autobiography which states I'm superman, then I need no justification beyond my existence and you are not qualified to judge. (In SG universe) If the Ori exist in the way the Book of Origen says, then they need no justification beyond their existence and we are not qualified to judge.

Even if he was/is a real being that does not preclude him from lying his ass off. Judge them by their fruits, not what they claim about their attributes. Genocide, slavery, torture == rotten, spoiled fruit.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#43hunter_gohanPosted 2/1/2013 1:51:46 PM
Not directly relevant(since you personally haven't committed any such atrocities), but this video does seem pertinent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_nBkAY7ls
"Somewhere deep inside you, you knew it was wrong."
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#44Julian_CaesarPosted 2/1/2013 4:43:32 PM
From: bratt100 | #041
And yet based on his actions he is very much a "bad guy" and his actions show that. You may not think you are qualified to judge him but I sure am because I have a conscience and a decent understanding of right and wrong.


Mmmk. So which actions of God are you judging?

If actions from the Bible, then remember that the Bible says God is perfect. If you allow the Bible's truth just to have "actions of God" to criticize but then ignore everything else it says, then you're just being silly and contradictory.

If actions not from the Bible, then what actions are you talking about? For that matter, how are you so sure that those actions were specifically God's and not someone else's?

God is like Hitler where they where right in the eyes of there followers but so fantastically wrong from everyone else's perspective that it's not even worth defending it.


Debater used Surprise Godwin's Law!!!!!!

It's not very effective!!!!!

From: hunter_gohan | #042
I wouldn't exactly call the ancients good either(Save a few, Ohma Desala, Orlon, Merlin, Morgan La Faye etc). Look at it as if you were in that universe though. If we were both on an Ori planet. We'd be having this exact same conversation(well until I get burned to death) with you defending the Ori and pointing to the Book of Origin saying the exact same things you're saying here.


That's not really accurate to the analogy, though. You're delving into a second "layer" of canon that takes place within the greater canon of Stargate. I'm comparing Bible canon to the actual Stargate universe; you're comparing it specifically to the Ori. You're essentially saying "what if the Bible is a complete lie, like the Ori?? what then??" Which is a completely different question from whether it is internally consistent.

In other words, you wouldn't be able to tell the Ori that they were bad if you tried to do so by using accounts from their own writings. That's what I'm saying about the Bible; if you want to say that God is morally corrupt, you can't do it by referring to His actions in the Bible because that book also says He is morally perfect. You'd be doing the same thing that theologians are often accused of doing: cherry-picking.

And I guess, in retrospect, the Ori are pretty darn similar in form to the OT God. It's still a somewhat deceptive analogy to me because we're privy to a lot of information about the Ori (by virtue of being "observers") that we could never have about God. You're basically arguing that God could be part of an extra-universal world which has different morality from our own, making God wrong about things. Borrowing from the Matrix Oracle, what should really cook your noodle is the question of whether that fact (even if true) has any effect on whether God ought to be obeyed in this universe ;)

Even if he was/is a real being that does not preclude him from lying his ass off. Judge them by their fruits, not what they claim about their attributes. Genocide, slavery, torture == rotten, spoiled fruit.


You're still referring to actions of God from the Bible. You know, the thing that says He is morally perfect.

For the LAST TIME, and read carefully because you're just not getting it: you cannot use Biblical accounts of God's actions as "proof" of anything while simultaneously ignoring the Biblical accounts of God's attributes. That's called "doing it wrong." It has nothing to do with the Bible being true or not, God existing or not, or any such thing...it has everything to do with logical consistency.
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Every day the rest of your life is changed forever.
#45hunter_gohanPosted 2/1/2013 5:40:43 PM(edited)
Julian_Caesar posted...
If actions from the Bible, then remember that the Bible says God is perfect. If you allow the Bible's truth just to have "actions of God" to criticize but then ignore everything else it says, then you're just being silly and contradictory.


I'm perfectly benevolent and loving. I just tortured and killed a baby.

Must you accept that I'm perfectly benevolent before you can talk about the latter sentence? Or can you rightly just simply point out that those two sentence contradict each other?

That's not really accurate to the analogy, though. You're delving into a second "layer" of canon that takes place within the greater canon of Stargate. I'm comparing Bible canon to the actual Stargate universe; you're comparing it specifically to the Ori. You're essentially saying "what if the Bible is a complete lie, like the Ori?? what then??" Which is a completely different question from whether it is internally consistent.


You kinda have to. Cause without delving into a second layer it would be "Stargate canon" and "Reality canon" not "Bible canon". With that we have the little problem of there not being any evidence that YHWH exists or doesn't. It's not my fault that when you look at the Bible from within "reality canon" and the Book of Origin from within "Stargate canon" that YHWH and the Ori wind up looking pretty much identical.

In other words, you wouldn't be able to tell the Ori that they were bad if you tried to do so by using accounts from their own writings. That's what I'm saying about the Bible; if you want to say that God is morally corrupt, you can't do it by referring to His actions in the Bible because that book also says He is morally perfect. You'd be doing the same thing that theologians are often accused of doing: cherry-picking.


People can lie, even in books. The only thing I have to do is accept that someone claimed YHWH was morally perfect. Just like I claimed to be perfectly benevolent and loving before torturing and killing that baby. Just like the Ori claimed to be loving, yet have devices to burn people alive in the middle of their villages. Just like Stalin claimed to be the Gardener of Human Hapiness. Just like Kim Jong Il claimed well there's a whole thread on what his autobiography claims on the politics board. Just because someone claims something doesn't mean it's true even if it's in a book.

And I guess, in retrospect, the Ori are pretty darn similar in form to the OT God. It's still a somewhat deceptive analogy to me because we're privy to a lot of information about the Ori (by virtue of being "observers") that we could never have about God.


Not that it means much, but in the original episode that introduced the Ori before we knew much about them my first thought was "Oh medieval Christianity in space.". I didn't need any extra info besides their actions.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#46hunter_gohanPosted 2/1/2013 5:39:56 PM
You're basically arguing that God could be part of an extra-universal world which has different morality from our own, making God wrong about things. Borrowing from the Matrix Oracle, what should really cook your noodle is the question of whether that fact (even if true) has any effect on whether God ought to be obeyed in this universe ;)


It doesn't though(cook my noodle, it does effect it). Tyrannical dictators should never be obeyed. My argument is basically, if the beings talked about in the bible are real, then I'm throwing my hat in with Lucifer who stands up and fights against the tyrannical dictator. It seems more likely that he is the good guy of that story.

For the LAST TIME, and read carefully because you're just not getting it: you cannot use Biblical accounts of God's actions as "proof" of anything while simultaneously ignoring the Biblical accounts of God's attributes. That's called "doing it wrong." It has nothing to do with the Bible being true or not, God existing or not, or any such thing...it has everything to do with logical consistency.


I'm perfectly benevolent and loving. I just tortured and killed a baby.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#47countzanderPosted 2/1/2013 6:38:24 PM
tl;dr

I think God can do whatever he wants. Even if morality exists independently of God, there's no one to call God to account.

Heck, let's just assume God is objectively evil and that he's just a cosmic troll. So what?
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#48hunter_gohanPosted 2/1/2013 7:02:11 PM
countzander posted...
Heck, let's just assume God is objectively evil and that he's just a cosmic troll. So what?


Viva la resistance.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#49DarkContractorPosted 2/2/2013 9:18:22 PM(edited)
well lets be honest about the assume the Bible thing. If we're assuming its true, what truth? we're assessing that God gave us the Bible. Not everything the Bible says. You might as well say if the Bible says 2+2=22, then its automatically true if we assume anything else about the Bible.

So it's not that a woman should be stoned if she didn't scream loud enough when being raped, it's that God said that.

its not that there was a global flood intended to kill millions, its that he said that.

its not that hes omnibenevolent and beyond moral approach, its that he said that.


if the last was true, I don't get how the first two could be. if the first two are false, then he has lied, something he himself said was wrong, falsifying the 3rd.
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#50bratt100Posted 2/3/2013 3:02:30 AM
Exactly. I could claim the same about myself and if I where deluded enough I could believe it...still doesn't make it true.
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.