This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Considering telling my mom I don't believe in God and stop bothering me about

#61AynRandySavagePosted 1/23/2013 8:42:13 AM(edited)
Systemafunk posted...

No, I said that a Christian is one for whom Jesus is their Lord and Savior. That means they have actual faith


So a Christian who thinks its self-evident that Jesus is lord and doesn't believe he needs "faith" is not a Christian then?

and as the Bible very well says, real faith produces works.


The Bible may very well be wrong. If, in fact, the bible is outright nonsense here, and faith does not produce works, does that mean that Christians don't exist?
#62SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 11:18:58 AM
So a Christian who thinks its self-evident that Jesus is lord and doesn't believe he needs "faith" is not a Christian then?

Faith is belief + trust. Belief is important, but a person who does not have at least some faith is simply not a follower of Christ and is not someone for whom Christ is Lord.


The Bible may very well be wrong. If, in fact, the bible is outright nonsense here, and faith does not produce works, does that mean that Christians don't exist?


That is silly. It is still the case that a Christian is one who has actual faith, which is defined as producing works. It doesn't matter if the object of faith is a lie. Faith without works, which ARE well defined as well, is not real faith. That is true regardless of whether or not all the supernatural claims in the Bible are untrue. So the definition of what a true Christian is according to the Bible is valid regardless.

You are grasping for straws.
#63AynRandySavagePosted 1/23/2013 11:33:50 AM(edited)
Systemafunk posted...
Belief is important, but a person who does not have at least some faith is simply not a follower of Christ and is not someone for whom Christ is Lord.


What's your reasoning for this? And what's your reasoning for thinking that these so-called "works" would save a marriage?
#64AynRandySavagePosted 1/23/2013 11:35:24 AM
Systemafunk posted...
It doesn't matter if the object of faith is a lie. Faith without works, which ARE well defined as well, is not real faith.


Every step of the way you're making the same fallacy. You said faith was "Belief+trust" believing something and "trusting" in it doesn't necessarily provide any works.
#65AynRandySavagePosted 1/23/2013 11:47:26 AM
And what exactly would you call a person who believed that Jesus was god, subscribed to all the beliefs of Christianity, but didn't have this so-called "faith"?
#66De Evolution(Topic Creator)Posted 1/23/2013 12:20:17 PM(edited)
Why I think Systemafunk is a f***ing moron and why it pisses me off to no end when Christians act like they have a monopoly on morality. This is actually what I brought up in my original post when I created this topic.

Saying something like if my dad was a "true Christian" this wouldn't have happened is f***ing stupid.

If my dad was a "true Muslim" it wouldn't have happened either. When you have an ideology that focuses on being the best possible person and emulating the best of some of the most basic and universal moral qualities, of course if you are a "true" [insert ideology here] then you would avoid certain actions and behaviors. It has very little to do with the superiority of any ideology in itself.

This is what I mean when I talk about the f***ing monopoly on morality that Christians believe they possess. As if the only way to to be a good human being is to be a f***ing Christian. As if the only way to be upright morally is to have a rigid belief system or doctrine that tells you to do so.

This is why I think Systemafunk and people like him are just extremely blind and ignorant people.

It's like saying "well if that child molester was a Christian that never would have happened."

Really? That's like saying "if that child molester was a decent human being that never would happened." Maybe if you and my mom were "true" Christians you wouldn't be judging people in the first place.

Tell all the kids who have been raped by priests that if their priest was a TRUE Christian, they never would have been raped. It really is a no true scotsman fallacy and a stupid and biased way of thinking at that. It's the same cognitive dissonance and compartmentalized thinking that allows my mom to think if my dad was Christian her marriage would have survived.

As if the ideology itself would have saved the marriage, ignoring people's individual qualities and the fact that Christian couples get divorced every day. The fact that Christian couples cheat and abuse their spouses all over this f***ing planet. It's cognitive dissonance. It's your weak and indoctrinated mind doing its best to protect your own feeble beliefs from seeming just as absurd as other beliefs. But then again Systema's answer would be that none of those people were "true" Christians.

What a f***ing joke.

---
The Self cannot be pierced by weapons or burned by fire; water cannot wet it, nor can wind dry it. It is everlasting and infinite
#67mercurydudePosted 1/23/2013 1:03:44 PM
De Evolution posted...
Why I think Systemafunk is a f***ing moron and why it pisses me off to no end when Christians act like they have a monopoly on morality. This is actually what I brought up in my original post when I created this topic.

Saying something like if my dad was a "true Christian" this wouldn't have happened is f***ing stupid.

If my dad was a "true Muslim" it wouldn't have happened either. When you have an ideology that focuses on being the best possible person and emulating the best of some of the most basic and universal moral qualities, of course if you are a "true" [insert ideology here] then you would avoid certain actions and behaviors. It has very little to do with the superiority of any ideology in itself.

This is what I mean when I talk about the f***ing monopoly on morality that Christians believe they possess. As if the only way to to be a good human being is to be a f***ing Christian. As if the only way to be upright morally is to have a rigid belief system or doctrine that tells you to do so.

This is why I think Systemafunk and people like him are just extremely blind and ignorant people.

It's like saying "well if that child molester was a Christian that never would have happened."

Really? That's like saying "if that child molester was a decent human being that never would happened." Maybe if you and my mom were "true" Christians you wouldn't be judging people in the first place.

Tell all the kids who have been raped by priests that if their priest was a TRUE Christian, they never would have been raped. It really is a no true scotsman fallacy and a stupid and biased way of thinking at that. It's the same cognitive dissonance and compartmentalized thinking that allows my mom to think if my dad was Christian her marriage would have survived.

As if the ideology itself would have saved the marriage, ignoring people's individual qualities and the fact that Christian couples get divorced every day. The fact that Christian couples cheat and abuse their spouses all over this f***ing planet. It's cognitive dissonance. It's your weak and indoctrinated mind doing its best to protect your own feeble beliefs from seeming just as absurd as other beliefs. But then again Systema's answer would be that none of those people were "true" Christians.

What a f***ing joke.


Exactly. His Holiness gives us this long ass list of idealized "Christlike" traits and alleges that no disaster would have occurred if the person met them. Christ was, according to Christian beliefs, perfect, so he could have called them perfect-like traits and made the exact same point. He wouldn't have been any less of a dick for doing so, but it would at least make clearer how lofty and unrealistic his expectations of others actually are.

I've heard people using the same rationalization to say that Christians don't get depressed. And of course, that just contributes to the mental health problems in this country, because someone hears something like that and thinks that they aren't a "true Christian" and so forth if they seek the professional help that they need.
---
"I am going to light a fire in Paradise and pour water on Hell, so that both veils completely vanish." - Rabia Al-'Adawiyya
#68SilviiroPosted 1/23/2013 2:06:35 PM(edited)
I'm sorry for bringing the divorce subject up. I just get annoyed by divorce as even beyond the religious issue it really messes up the kids for life. My grandparents were all divorced and the one divorce gave my dad a bout of schizophrenia while on the other divorce my mother won't even speak with her father and I've never even met him. I see all this from people who claim to be Christians, people who claim homosexuality is destroying America, people who claim that people today are so immoral compared to them, and it does affect my judgment.
---
"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#69CthulhuPosted 1/26/2013 4:31:05 PM
De Evolution posted...

Then a couple days ago my mom's friend from church came over. We're all sitting down chatting and my mom says I need to go to church more and she wishes I would go. Right in front of the company. Then her friend chimes in and starts asking me about my beliefs. I dodged the question because my mom doesn't know about my new found skepticism and I'd rather speak to her privately about it before I bring it up in front of company. But goddamn is this s*** getting ridiculous. Her friend is talking about how she's going "get some God" at the evening service and my mom backing her up saying "Please take my son with you" and it's just f***ing absurd.


You should tell her, and you should embarrass her in front of her friends. Next time she does that to you in public, tell her, in front of everyone, that you don't believe in god and he's a joke, and that her forcing you to go to church is never going to have the effect of making you believe. In fact, it will have the opposite, and you will hate and resent her god and her religion the more she tries to push it on you. Do this once and she'll probably never bring it up in front of people again