This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Do you Christians here think children should read the bible?

#71Far421Posted 1/28/2013 2:10:09 PM
kozlo100 posted...
Is the problem that you cannot imagine ever holding a belief other than what will make you happy and successful in society? Is that why this is so difficult for you?

Let's try yet another approach. You will be teaching your child to think critically. Are you doing this because you think it is right, or because you think it will make them happy and successful? I understand you think that both things are true, but which is your primary motivation?


Happy and successful, because that is the ultimate goal, to live a happy life without hurting those around you. Why would anything at all possibly be right if not because it is for the benefit of some party?
---
Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#72kozlo100Posted 1/28/2013 2:14:32 PM
Far421 posted...
Happy and successful, because that is the ultimate goal, to live a happy life without hurting those around you. Why would anything at all possibly be right if not because it is for the benefit of some party?


You've added a criterion there. If the society you live in requires you to hurt those around you in order to be happy and successful, and does not consider such action to be immoral or wrong, will you teach your child to hurt those around him? Or will you instead teach him to be as happy and successful as he can without hurting those around him, as you believe is right?
---
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#73Far421Posted 1/28/2013 2:16:58 PM
Hustle Kong posted...
brainwashing[ breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing ]
noun
1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.
3. an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.


This is different from parents raising their children the way we have done for millennia, and is needlessly pejorative and bigoted. I'd go so far as to say that someone using such inflammatory language isn't as big a proponent of critical thinking as they pretend, when resorting to those kind of "scarewords".


Definition #2 seems apt enough to me. I mean, it's even including commericals. I will add that I don't necessarily think that the process is intentional, but possibly an emergent result of very strongly held beliefs.

It is not bigoted. I'm not saying all religious people brainwash their children. I'm saying that to deny children critical thinking skills is to do them a disservice, and to additionally teach them about religious beliefs that are not to be questioned is effectively brainwashing them.

I'm not interested in the ad hominem part of your post. I am not trying to use a "scareword". I'm using the word that honestly seems to fit best to me.
---
Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#74Hustle KongPosted 1/28/2013 2:20:08 PM
You ARE using a pejorative term though. And you're doing so on purpose. You're equating someone passing on worldviews that might not include critical thinking with the type of intentional manipulation used by people.

If you're not trying to poison the well, are you ignorant of the rather negative connotations of the word?
---
Shooting Game never die.
It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.
#75Far421Posted 1/28/2013 2:20:55 PM
kozlo100 posted...
Far421 posted...
Happy and successful, because that is the ultimate goal, to live a happy life without hurting those around you. Why would anything at all possibly be right if not because it is for the benefit of some party?


You've added a criterion there. If the society you live in requires you to hurt those around you in order to be happy and successful, and does not consider such action to be immoral or wrong, will you teach your child to hurt those around him? Or will you instead teach him to be as happy and successful as he can without hurting those around him, as you believe is right?


The criterion was never as simple as personal happiness. It is about overall happiness. We define a set of rights such that everyone has equal rights and one person's rights end where those of another begin. Anything that is not violating someone's rights is allowed. Within this framework, we try to balance personal and social happiness. Honestly the best way I can describe this is in terms of an n-dimension optimization problem from calculus, where n = # people in the society.
---
Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#76kozlo100Posted 1/28/2013 2:26:39 PM
And again didn't answer the question.

Again, society requires you to harm people to be happy. Do you teach your child what this society thinks you should, or do you teach him what you think is right?
---
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#77Far421Posted 1/28/2013 2:27:31 PM
Hustle Kong posted...
You ARE using a pejorative term though. And you're doing so on purpose. You're equating someone passing on worldviews that might not include critical thinking with the type of intentional manipulation used by people.

If you're not trying to poison the well, are you ignorant of the rather negative connotations of the word?


Oh, I'm fine with the negative connotations. As far as I'm concerned, to not teach children to think critcally is to do them and others a disservice, as I explained in one of my first few posts in this topic. I'm not saying it's intentional, but I am saying it is harmful. When you have people protesting against gay marriage because they were just indoctrinated against it and they were never taught how to really think about the issue, real people are suffering real harm. It isn't a thing I'm willing to just excuse.
---
Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#78Far421Posted 1/28/2013 2:34:37 PM
kozlo100 posted...
And again didn't answer the question.

Again, society requires you to harm people to be happy. Do you teach your child what this society thinks you should, or do you teach him what you think is right?


I don't have childtren or I try to overthrow the society. Just because you can ask a question does not make it worth answering. My definition of morality is dependent on reality, and would likely change drastically if society could regulate happiness away.
---
Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#79the_hedonistPosted 1/28/2013 2:35:09 PM
JonWood007 posted...
Common criticism Christians pose. Just because we can't avoid bias doesn't give us a license to just be as biased as we want. Christians often confuse attempting to remove bias and to remain objective as bias itself.

As for them being biased against it, maybe, but is thinking critically about ideas a bad thing? What's so bad about judging ideas based on merit, instead of accepting them blindly? Is it bad to actually make people have REASONS to believe what they believe? If your beliefs are true and valid, they should be able to stand on their own without needing to indoctrinate children who know no better into them. After all, critical thinking really doesn't have a bias...unless your ideas have no legitimate reasoning to back them up. It's only biased against weak/bad/unfounded ideas.

I also doubt most parents would lay into critical thinking in 5 year olds anyway though. Doing so would kinda kill the whole Santa Claus thing, for instance, and that's if they can even grasp it. However, I think by the time they're old enough to know Santa isn't real that we should be teaching critical thinking.


Obviously there is nothing wrong with attempting to remove bias. The problem is when a person haughtily assumes that their own position is the unbiased one, the "free thinking" one. Promoting Christianity certainly is not opposed to promoting critical thinking or free thinking. Certain forms of Christianity? Sure, but the same can be said about certain forms of atheism.

The notion that a Christian should not "expose" their children to Christianity is ridiculous, and you should be ashamed.
---
"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#80kozlo100Posted 1/28/2013 2:39:12 PM
Far421 posted...
I don't have childtren or I try to overthrow the society.


And there's the dodge I predicted in my first post to you. Did you think about why you felt you needed to make it?
---
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick