Religion

I just wish he could argue worth a damn, he could be indoctrinated any way he likes.
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The above is both true and false.

^^If he could argue, he likely would not be indoctrinated.
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"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people."
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The above is both true and false.

Definitely true in my case and why I'm no longer religious, not sure it's universal though. I agree with that sentiment at least to a degree, considering how since deconverting very few religious arguments convince me at all.
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Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768

OrangeWizard posted...

Something doesn't have to be demonstrated to you for it to be true. True things are true whether or not you believe in it, whether or not it can be shown to you, or whether or not you can prove it.

What I'm saying, is that the absolute claim that "The Christian God is immoral" is illogical, because you cannot demonstrate this.

I'm not proposing that he is moral, I'm just proposing that you can't say that he is immoral. That is my position, and it's very much demonstrable.

Sure I can. By our current societal moral standards, and my own, I absolutely can and do say he is immoral. I don't accept that there is an absolute good because you can't demonstrate such a thing at all. What we define as good and bad changes constantly through time.

This is not a case of demonstrating truth, it's a case of demonstrating anything. Demonstrating the existence of absolute morality in the first place.

I've never heard of it.

But if this ghost says something demonstrably false, then it does indeed throw the ghost into the hot seat.

Nope. Like you are doing, if the Ghost that Never Lies says something that we think is false, then clearly we think wrong because the Ghost never lies. You know, like when something is absolutely atrocious and evil must actually be the best course of action because of a different absolute attribute... This is what you're doing, and why it's such a stupid thing to do.

However, due to the nature of morality, you cannot say that something is demonstrably immoral, because morals differ from person to person and there is no objective standard.

This is another reason why you cannot say God is immoral.

Well that's interesting, did you not earlier argue for an 'absolute good'? Would that not include morality?

Further, there is a cultural standard that we use, there is a legal standard, both of which God's alleged actions fail upon. As such, the actions are deemed immoral. If you wish to argue that they aren't because of some absolute morality, then PROVE YOUR CLAIM.

Then you'd better not try to criticize the God of the bible, because that God's attributes are absolute.

The Ghost That Never Lies says the Bible is bunk and your God is false. This must be true, because the Ghost never lies.

Sure I can. By our current societal moral standards, and my own, I absolutely can and do say he is immoral. I don't accept that there is an absolute good because you can't demonstrate such a thing at all. What we define as good and bad changes constantly through time.

So if you wait long enough, maybe a thousand years or so, and the then current societal moral standards say He's not immoral, then what?! Can we get you on record now for saying God's a bad guy when in a Millenium, He'll be considered a-ok?!

I'm pretty sure OW won this with Sam.

(I'm still working on my response I promised earlier, but this week has been a bear)
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"Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him!
But the thunder of His power who can understand." - Job 24:14

Suibom posted...

So if you wait long enough, maybe a thousand years or so, and the then current societal moral standards say He's not immoral, then what?! Can we get you on record now for saying God's a bad guy when in a Millenium, He'll be considered a-ok?!

I'm pretty sure OW won this with Sam.

(I'm still working on my response I promised earlier, but this week has been a bear)

Sure, you can. Except that I'd be over a thousand years dead. That's one of the properties of subjective morality. Are you professing to know the future, though? Or are you just throwing out another empty speculation, like any claims of absolute morality or any other absolute attribute of God?

Sure I know the future.

I'm having a veggie wrap for lunch in an hour.

I've known that since we went grocery shopping two nights ago.

But that's not the point.

The point is that you said that by current morality, you'd view God as a bad guy.

Current.

If history proves true, what you view as moral today will change.

So you can't use a measuring stick that changes to measure an unchanging being.

I used to work in construction. Having a good measuring tape that you know how to use is huge. But can you imagine how frustrating it would be to try to take measurements if one minute two inches was two inches, and 10 minutes later, two inches was actually 4??

You cannot use your changing morality to measure (criticize/judge) God. You can't. It's silly to try.

There was a tribe that when they heard the story of Jesus's betrayal by judas, they thought JUDAS was the good guy, the hero, for being so cunning and shrewd, while Christians view him as a backstabbing "friend", a traitor, and a tool of Satan.
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"Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him!
But the thunder of His power who can understand." - Job 24:14

Suibom posted...

Sure I know the future.

I'm having a veggie wrap for lunch in an hour.

I've known that since we went grocery shopping two nights ago.

But that's not the point.

The point is that you said that by current morality, you'd view God as a bad guy.

Current.

If history proves true, what you view as moral today will change.

So you can't use a measuring stick that changes to measure an unchanging being.

I used to work in construction. Having a good measuring tape that you know how to use is huge. But can you imagine how frustrating it would be to try to take measurements if one minute two inches was two inches, and 10 minutes later, two inches was actually 4??

You cannot use your changing morality to measure (criticize/judge) God. You can't. It's silly to try.

There was a tribe that when they heard the story of Jesus's betrayal by judas, they thought JUDAS was the good guy, the hero, for being so cunning and shrewd, while Christians view him as a backstabbing "friend", a traitor, and a tool of Satan.

Blah blah, you're making the same tautological definition problem as OW. The Ghost that never lies says God doesn't have absolute morality. He never lies, so it must be true.

In any case, we know that morals can change. But right now, we have a pretty solid grasp of what we consider good and evil in our society, with a couple of exceptions. There are usually laws revolving around such. We can show this. You cannot show an unchanging being, and you never will be able to. That's a pretty big difference, and immediately makes my position infinitely stronger.

Just curious, what happens to those laws in a state of emergency, or in war time?

Do they stay the same? Unchanging? Unable to be overiden?

Or do the powers that be adjust them, suspend them, or replace them as needed?

Can those laws and those morals be superseded for the greater good by our authorities?

Because if your laws and morals can change that quickly, and easily, then no, you don't have an infinitely stronger position. You just have one that is currently stable.

Currently.
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"Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him!
But the thunder of His power who can understand." - Job 24:14