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Refuting the Flying Spaghetti Monster when someone uses it like this.

#31Faust_8Posted 1/23/2013 12:46:19 AM
Here's what I don't get: the FSM is made of spaghetti, so you demand that there should be evidence of this?

How? Where?

There could be a teapot orbiting the sun. Therefore there is tangible evidence of it, since it is a physical object. Do we have that evidence? No. But that is not enough to conclude that there is no teapot.

Thus just because the FSM is made of tangible spaghetti doesn't mean we'd actually be able to find evidence of that, nor can you use the expected lack of evidence as a refutation of the FSM. We don't have evidence of everything that exists in the natural world. I mean...I exist. Do you have tangible evidence of that? Do you expect to?

Besides, theists do this kind of thing all the time. Like, for example, say that someone says that there can't be fire in Hell because fire is a physical thing. It is a jiggling of atoms and reactions of electrons. Fire can't exist without atoms and physics. But then the theist says it's basically "magic fire" as in, it's fire but doesn't obey the rules of fire.

Or when theists claim that God is 3 beings. And one being. Who's three beings. And one being. At once. Who's his own father, by the way.

Thus we can do this for the FSM. His noodly appendage is real spaghetti...but magic spaghetti too. He is both tangible and intangible at the same time. R'amen.

Nor are we using omnipotence to disprove an omnipotence god, moreso just showing that any argument used in favor of a general god can be used for many things, including the FSM. Because you see, most theist arguments are made in reference to general gods, not their specific god...but they treat them as if they do. That's where the FSM comes in--cases for general gods do not prove X specific god anymore than they prove the FSM.
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You are the universe
Expressing itself as a human, for a little while
#32fudrickPosted 1/23/2013 3:25:06 AM(edited)
C_Mat posted...
The FSM is a pretty pathetic attempt from atheists to discredit theists. It is not as if Christians make the claim "You cannot disprove God's existence; therefore God exists."


You think it's accurate to say that no christian in history has ever made that claim?

Proudclad posted...
I suppose you're right. And yet perhaps someone who is color-blind might end up not acknowledging that a dandelion is intrinsically white. Someone who doesn't care might not acknowledge that the world is intrinsically beautiful.


See, the cool thing about the intrinsic "color" of the dandelion, or whatever else you would like to choose, is that we can isolate and identify pigments and then demonstrate that these pigments absorb certain frequencies/wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, and reflect certain other frequencies/wavelengths of that electromagnetic radiation, thereby applying a "color" to the given object. So, although a color-blind person may not be able to perceive this color through his or her senses, we can provide empirical evidence to support the concept of intrinsic color.

Can you do something like that for the alleged intrinsic beauty of... well, anything?

To expand upon this, note that the range of frequency/wavelength that encompasses all that we as humans refer to as "color," also known as the visible light spectrum, composes a tiny fraction of the total known electromagnetic spectrum. Other animals on Earth are capable of perceiving wavelengths/frequencies outside this range which is visible to humans. I wonder what the actual various "colors" of ultraviolet light would look like? In fact, the human eye is not a very reliable measure of the true intrinsic color of an object, and so the process I described above is actually more legitimate than simply looking at an object and describing its color based on the way our limited human bodies are able to perceive the electromagnetic radiation being reflected off that object.
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Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#33Cubbiesboy22Posted 1/23/2013 5:23:34 AM
I can't believe we are having an in depth discussion about the FSM;)
#34SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 5:47:10 AM
I would say the truth of Christianity is more evident in it's applicability than in simply appearing non arbitrary to an outsider. The FSM parody exists purely to poke fun at the idea that Christianity is arbitrary, but that is not true. Christian doctrines all exist for a reason, and the reason has to do with applicability. If you do not understand why certain things in Christianity are the way they are, then you would see them as arbitrary and thing the FSM was a good parody, but it is not.

If you want a "good" parody of Christianity, and I can say that even as a Christian, then you would have to look at the Mechanists and Hammerites from the Thief games. Part of the reason they are a good parody is because they do not come across as arbitrary like the whole FSM thing. And anyone that REALLY thinks that FSM is an actual good parody or counter example to Christianity just doesn't get it.

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/guides/theses/hammers.asp


The history of the Order of the Hammer is a long one; one irrevocably intertwined with the City itself. The date of the formation of the Hammerite Order is shrouded in a fog of mystery so thick and blinding that even the eyes and minds of their own scholars cannot pierce it. The Hammerites seem to have always existed, and even though their future is not certain the marks they have left on the City ensure that they will always be remembered.

Hammerite history and lore holds that the Order began with the revelation by the Builder to his appointed representative in this dimension - the prophet honoured by the Hammerites as the Prophet Jeremyn. It is held that it is he who first revealed the Builder's Truth to those around him, and guided them as they built the first houses with the first rough tools the land had known. The Hammerites still honour a primitive hammer they hold to be the first ever made - its origins and antiquity are doubtful, but it is venerated by the Order as one of their most holy relics.

The Prophet seems not only to have given the early Hammerites the skills to "forge a new way of life", thus enabling them to no longer have to steal the "fur and fang of beasts for survival". He granted them the Book of the Nail - a book of many chapters, in verse, laying out the basis of Hammerite theology and tales to illustrate it. The book also contains histories of the Order, suggesting that it was originally an oral tradition that was eventually written down.

Opinion is divided as to whether the Prophet Jeremyn was a true prophet, or whether his talk of the Master Builder were the convincing delusions of a deranged man. Indeed, it is not known whether or not he actually existed, although most scholars are convinced of the existence of a man who played a prominent role in the foundation of the Order. Some believe that he was a true Prophet passing on the word of the Builder, thus implying His existence, while others believe that the man was a deranged lunatic who invented a religion convincing enough to cause others to join it and venerate him as a prophet and holy man.
#35SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 5:49:38 AM
http://www.ttlg.mobi/the-order-of-the-hammer-thread-132950-page-4.aspx

The Order of the Hammer is a monotheistic religion, believing in the existence of a single deity who reveals himself through earthly prophets. They hold that this single, transcendent deity created the universe and continues to govern it providentially. Underpinning this monotheism is the teleological conviction that the world is both intelligible and purposive, because a single divine intelligence stands behind it and has created it. Hammerite theology is extensively rooted in the metaphor of their deity as the literal architect of the world. Just as an architect designs and constructs a building, so the Hammerites hold that the Master Builder has designed and created this world. And thus, since a building has purpose, so the world has a purpose. The Order arose out of opposition to the Trickster, rather than any positive act of will - as a result, Hammerite theology is orientated towards a rejection of all that is seen as Pagan or ‘heathen'. It is a religion of opposition, as opposed to one of independence. As a result, the Hammers have evolved in such a way that this purpose is the rejection of the beliefs of Order of the Vine.

Hammerites believe this purpose to be expressed in the words of earthly prophets that the Builder designates. It is held that the first prophet was a man known as the First Apprentice, whom the Hammerites revere as the founder of their way of life. Further prophets seem to have appeared at various points of history, who aided the Hammers in some way, and who further codified and expanded the laws by which the Hammerites live their lives. Eventually, with the rise of a priestly caste, the intermittent prophets came to be named High Priests. Over the centuries this custom has become somewhat altered, with the result that the High Priest of the Hammerite Order is now seen as the divinely appointed representative of the Master Builder.

The Hammers see the laws they are given by prophets as conditions they must follow in return for continued existence in their Builder's creation. They regard their existence as being part of a contract with the Master Builder - they must worship and obey the commands of their deity, who has given them life and who provides aid and direction for them. The direction provided exists in the form of the “Book of Tenets”. This revered collection of assembled wisdom and rules forms the basis for the Hammerite way of life. A body of subsidiary lecture surrounds the Book, expanding and explaining the contents of the book, and providing precedents and tales for study. Known as the “Compendium of Precepts, Regimens, and Rules of Conduct”, it comprises many volumes that are divided into three subjects - Precepts, Regimens, and Rules of Conduct.

The most noticeable feature of the Hammerite religion is the seeming preoccupation with construction. The Hammers see their deity as an engineer, and so regard the world as a work of engineering. This stems from their rejection of Pagan theology, and causes them to hold Order, expressed as engineering or architecture, as the aspiration of the world. This has led them to devote energies into the construction of ‘ordered' buildings and machinery that leads to the subjugation of the nature and chaos inherent in pagan theology.


And again of course, the thing about the Hammerites that both makes it a good parody, as well as compelling in it's own right, is precisely because it is NOT arbitrary (nor is it juvenile).
#36fudrickPosted 1/23/2013 5:55:31 AM(edited)
Systemafunk posted...
I would say the truth of Christianity is more evident in it's applicability than in simply appearing non arbitrary to an outsider. The FSM parody exists purely to poke fun at the idea that Christianity is arbitrary, but that is not true. Christian doctrines all exist for a reason, and the reason has to do with applicability. If you do not understand why certain things in Christianity are the way they are, then you would see them as arbitrary and thing the FSM was a good parody, but it is not.

If you want a "good" parody of Christianity, and I can say that even as a Christian, then you would have to look at the Mechanists and Hammerites from the Thief games. Part of the reason they are a good parody is because they do not come across as arbitrary like the whole FSM thing. And anyone that REALLY thinks that FSM is an actual good parody or counter example to Christianity just doesn't get it.


Conversely, I would say that anyone that REALLY thinks that FSM was made to be a parody of the entirety of the christian belief system just doesn't get it.

Not that I particularly like the concept, but still.
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Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#37SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 5:55:55 AM
There is even a schismatic order from the Hammerites called the Mechanists.

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Mechanist

The Mechanists were an schismatic sect of the Order of the Hammer that came to full power after the Woodsie Lord devastated the Hammerites.

and

After the Trickster died (and during the discourse of the Hammerite Order), a group of Hammerites began to show disdain for the teachings of the Order, believing that technological innovations should be put before other subjects. Karras was one such Hammerite priest who left the Order with about one hundred other Hammerites, including Cavador. Karras led the rebellious Hammerites and created a new Order that would be known as the Mechanists. Over time, Karras became insane and began to believe that only beings of a mechanical nature could serve the Builder. With this, he decided that he would kill anything organic in the City.
#38SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 5:57:20 AM
and some Mechanist quotes:

Use the tools that the Builder hath given thee, and pester not the worker, for his toil is pleasant to the Builder's eyes!

Remember, the gear asketh not why it turns, but keeps its faith and turns day and night, never failing. Be thou the Gear in the Builder's Plan.

Let the Builder's faithful turn their eyes to a task, and lo, it shall be done.

And Karras said, "Let us give thanks to The Builder, for He hath formed my hands with fingers. And behold, my fingers interlock like cogs on a gear. I am part of His unbeholdable machine, and therein lies my salvation.'

Into position weld, thee, thy plate, matching A unto A, and B unto B, such that complete is thy seal, a barrier true that blocketh dust and dirt--the enemies of the goodly gear.

And behold! A man will come unto thee, and he will be a leader of men...and he will be a wager of war, and he will be a shedder of sap, and he will be a spiller...of blood!

Forge thou not the hammer, but be fortified with The Builder's knowledge and let then the higher things be wrought. Then shall thou prosper.

The saplings did so unnatural prance that we feared of the forms...most unholy-wrought, and did falter and take flight...'til he that it is Karras did raise us up against them, that we, one and next, did raise us up, too.

And Karras said, 'Lay down thy hammer, friends, 'tis yesteryear's trappings.' And so we laid them down, and seeing this, Karras spoke again: 'Now raise up thy mace, The Builder shall fuel thee...and all the followers of Karras.'

The piston connected to the spiral valve, the spiral valve connected to the step gear, the step gear connected to the steam jack. O! hear, thee, the word of Karras!

Yesterday I built my home from brick and stone. A childish dwelling for childish times! Now I am a man and I have built my home from iron and steel. Blessed be The Builder for this and all His gifts!

And there cameth an oxen and Karras smote it. And there cameth a sycamore and he did rain blows ‘til it, too, was sorely smoted. And two lamblings came, that he, one and the next, did smote bravely and well.

The bellows are burnt, the lead is consumed of the fire, the founder melteth in vain, for the wicked are not plucked away.

The coal is the fuel, the fuel is put in the furnace, the furnace gets the lit, when lit it maketh the heat, the heat warmeth the forge.

I am a cog in The Builder's gear. He hath conceived the world and its workings are unimaginable. I am a vapor in The Builder's steam. He hath breathed light into the world, and its vastness is unbreachable. Praise be to Him.

Make haste when thou can, that thou shall prosper o'er them that sloth. Make numbers when thou will'st, that thou shall prosper o'er them that are few.

Beware the foul one, the tricker of men. He hath wrought evil. Even as easily as I shape this iron, in masterful forms too numerous to count, beware that which he hath wrought.

Woe to them that trust not in Karras. From his mouth soundeth the will of The Builder. From his pen The Builder's plan is busily writ. Woe to them that trust not in Karras.

I am diligent; 'twas The Builder that made me so. I am tireless; 'twas The Builder that made me so.

If there be a seam, weld it. If there be a gear, turn it. If there be a furnace, fuel it.

If there be a tree, fell it. If there be a wolf, slaughter it. If there be a Heretic, suffer him to live no longer.

And Karras spake, saying, 'I am the gear and you are the cogs! Without the gear the cogs hath no purpose, and without the cogs the gear hath no teeth.' Thus spake Karras.
#39SystemafunkPosted 1/23/2013 6:01:42 AM
Conversely, I would say that anyone that REALLY thinks that FSM was made to be a parody of the entirety of the christian belief system just doesn't get it.

Exactly. It directly parodies one or two things, then it has a whole bunch of very superficial extrapolations that are obviously ridiculous to try and make some point.

It doesn't do that very well though. The truth is that the whole FSM thing is lame. It isn't even a good parody. It isn't even a good parody from it's purported purpose, which is to try and portray theology as arbitrary and ridiculous, but that is partly because theology is NOT necessarily arbitrary.

A good parody religion is Discordianism, but that parodies lots of religions. A much better "theistic" parody is the one I provided.
#40QwelzaarKanePosted 1/23/2013 6:10:15 AM
Cubbiesboy22 posted...
I can't believe we are having an in depth discussion about the FSM;)


R'amen, brother. I have tasted the sauce and been touched by His Noodly Appendage.

Our Father who art in boiling water,
FSM be thy name.
Thy sauce is cooked.
Thy pasta be delicious
on dishes as it is in our mouths.
Give us this day our daily noodles,
and forgive us our full stomachs,
as we forgive those who refuse us meatballs,
and lead us not into lasagna,
but deliver us from macaroni.

R'amen
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