This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

God's a nutter

#11serpentslayerPosted 1/25/2013 11:07:53 AM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


They only would sin if God wanted them to. If a robot malfunctions, it's not the robot's fault.
---
God is man helping man: this is the way to everlasting glory. -Pliny the Elder
#12LastManStandingPosted 1/25/2013 11:21:43 AM
Heaven is the place where those who believe in God's Mercy get rewarded. Away from Sin, onto true happiness, I can't wait:)
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#13PhiZZiZlePosted 1/25/2013 11:32:20 AM
kozlo100 posted...
See this was kind of my main point in that now 800 post threadnought that shall not be named.

Instead of asking why God would create a universe that looks like ours, we should take our universe and ask if it looks like it was created by a benevolent omnipotent being.

How you frame the question changes the whole shape of the discussion.


Interesting point....Never thought about it that way before.

That said, I can't prove that it WASN'T created by an omnipotent benevolent being. Its certainly possible that being had his own reasons.

One example is love. If love is the ultimate ethic, and it can only be achieved through free will, and free will allows for love's antithesis, should we not also see evil and suffering in a world designed to foster love?
---
God made police so that firefighters could have heroes.
#14TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 12:19:11 PM
Gegengegengegen posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
Gegengegengegen posted...
And what about the innocents who are utterly crushed and destroyed by evil, physically and spiritually?


I am not one of those Christians who pretends to know how God sorts those who go on from those who just die, but I do not believe anyone is punished with any kind of torment. They just go back to death.


So then what's the point at all of creating a life that does nothing but suffer and cause suffering only to be snuffed out?


Who the heck leads such a life?

God doesnt create that sort of thing. He creates free agents, who in turn create suffering.
---
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#15TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 12:19:39 PM
serpentslayer posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


They only would sin if God wanted them to. If a robot malfunctions, it's not the robot's fault.


I dont believe humans are deterministic robots.
---
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#16LastManStandingPosted 1/25/2013 12:21:16 PM

'When it is all over you will not regret having suffered; rather you will regret having suffered so little, and suffered that little so badly.'

--St. Sebastian Valfre
---
Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#17hamsandwich3141Posted 1/25/2013 1:00:33 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


But not everyone manages to live long enough to gain all that wisdom and experience. What about 8 year old Jimmy who got hit by a car? Is he gonna be a dick in heaven for a while because he never lived through his teenage years and matured?

Serious question, in case it didn't seem like it.
---
She went after her kids with super love, they turned into drugs. - LastManStanding
#18fudrickPosted 1/25/2013 2:00:17 PM
PhiZZiZle posted...
Interesting point....Never thought about it that way before.


No offense intended, but... you honestly never considered whether the universe as it is appears to have been created by an omnipotent benevolent being? Does that mean you have only thought about it from the first perspective kozlo mentioned, that of starting with the assumption that the universe was created by an omnipotent benevolent being and searching for reasons as to why he would create the universe in this specific way? Again, I'm just curious about your position, not trying to belittle it or anything like that.
---
Best FCs:
GH1: Decontrol | GH2: Jordan, Hangar 18 | GH80s: Because It's Midnite | GH3: One, Soothsayer | RB2: I Ain't Superstitious
#19TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 2:06:34 PM
hamsandwich3141 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


But not everyone manages to live long enough to gain all that wisdom and experience. What about 8 year old Jimmy who got hit by a car? Is he gonna be a dick in heaven for a while because he never lived through his teenage years and matured?

Serious question, in case it didn't seem like it.


I dont pretend to know how God will handle the blurry cases, but I trust him
---
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#20JonWood007Posted 1/25/2013 2:13:09 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


Well, if we're talking moral development, how come Christianity, at least certain brands (see the you can't criticize God topic), encourage blind obedience over thinking for yourself?

If you look at Kohlberg's stages of morality, you'll see that some kinds of Christianity seem to discourage high levels of moral development, or at least only support it in limited circumstances.

There's also other issues. Now, I get the annhilationist point of view, but why send people to hell if they don't obey? Why not reincarnation? You fail a test, you keep taking it again until you pass, I'm sure most people would learn over several life times. But why eternal torture?

Why wait until only 3000 years ago to begin interacting with humanity? That's a cosmic blink of the eye. What abut the moral development of all the humans who came before? What about the animals? Did God really make the universe for us? What about aliens? Will we see aliens in heaven? Do aliens/animals/organisms have eternal souls? If not, why do we? Does intelligence really make someone's existence persistent in the afterlife? If so, how?

Why make a world in which there are NATURAL disasters? Your logic follows if the world were perfect if we did not sin, and everything in the world wrong is due to sin, but it's clearly not true. Suffering, death, disease, storms, volcanoes. Those are all natural. If we exist eternally, why even create physical pain and suffering? Emotional pain and suffering my be inevitable, and I can totally get that, but why have everyone fight over limited resources? Why make stuff...harmful? Why not just give everyone what they need, so no one is ever hungry? Why make it where we can harm and kill each other? God could've made violence literally harmless, like that episode in family guy where death no longer applied and everyone is shooting each other in the bar and everyone's just laughing.

I know people mention that perhaps death in itself is not a bad thing, but couldn't God, instead of making a world of pain and death, just make it where people can't die, until they reach a certain age, then they die automatically?

And ultimately, what's the ultimate goal of this existence God has in mind for us after? Knowing full well he could get rid of a lot of the pain and suffering that is in this world we created, the idea of....well...preparing us for something seems weird.

And one more thing, why would God not be more explicit in this world than he is? Why is he not talking to us just like he talked to the Israelites at Mount Sinai, or in Egypt? Instead, we have to learn this from other human beings, who learned this from other humans beings, who learned this from other humans beings, who thousands of years may have talked to a supernatural entity, but we actually have no proof of this.

More questions than answers come out of your theory.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768