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God's a nutter

#21mercurydudePosted 1/25/2013 2:13:18 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.

Sounds like you're saying that he's too inept to create anything that isn't flawed, despite his already having done so when he created angels. Besides, the question was about making heaven, as in just skipping to the happy ending part; that way, he doesn't even have to bother with those that he desires not to perish, because they'd never have been created to disobey him in the first place.
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"I am going to light a fire in Paradise and pour water on Hell, so that both veils completely vanish." - Rabia Al-'Adawiyya
#22mercurydudePosted 1/25/2013 2:27:40 PM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...
Gegengegengegen posted...
So then what's the point at all of creating a life that does nothing but suffer and cause suffering only to be snuffed out?


Who the heck leads such a life?

God doesnt create that sort of thing. He creates free agents, who in turn create suffering.


A child born with a certain condition such as Harlequin ichthyosis. There are a handful who survive that condition to live into adulthood, but it's usually a death sentence, wherein a baby lives a very brief life of nothing but suffering, and the parents likewise can only see their child writhe in torment for the short time that it's with them.

Edited, because I guess you could say the previous example I gave is a case of free agents causing suffering, but this one still wouldn't be.
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"I am going to light a fire in Paradise and pour water on Hell, so that both veils completely vanish." - Rabia Al-'Adawiyya
#23TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 2:25:24 PM
JonWood007 posted...
Well, if we're talking moral development, how come Christianity, at least certain brands (see the you can't criticize God topic), encourage blind obedience over thinking for yourself?


Those sects are teaching the wrong thing in my opinion. You should go talk to those people. This applies to the following paragraph as well.

There's also other issues. Now, I get the annhilationist point of view, but why send people to hell if they don't obey? Why not reincarnation? You fail a test, you keep taking it again until you pass, I'm sure most people would learn over several life times. But why eternal torture?


I am an annihilationist, I dont believe in eternal torture.

Why wait until only 3000 years ago to begin interacting with humanity?


Can you prove he did?

That's a cosmic blink of the eye. What abut the moral development of all the humans who came before? What about the animals? Did God really make the universe for us? What about aliens? Will we see aliens in heaven? Do aliens/animals/organisms have eternal souls? If not, why do we? Does intelligence really make someone's existence persistent in the afterlife? If so, how?


I dont know, I dont know, probably not, probably, maybe, I dont even believe WE have eternal souls yet, we dont, I dont believe intelligence gives us eternal life (God does), N/A.

I dont see anything inherently evil about a death, provided there is nothing malicious in its execution. That is my partial response to natural disasters. Ill add that it is possible that natural disasters and their existence helps build the moral character of humans such that they will be even stronger in the world to come.

I would argue that God gave us more than enough resources to feed our people. It is our failure that has created these problems youre talking about.

If evil actions had no consequences, how would we grow, and is it truly free will if you cannot impact the universe with your actions?

A lot of the rest of your questions can be answered with "I dont know". Ill address the "I dont know" answers at the bottom. If I dont answer something, assume that that is my response.

Not done
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#24TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 2:25:35 PM
And ultimately, what's the ultimate goal of this existence God has in mind for us after? Knowing full well he could get rid of a lot of the pain and suffering that is in this world we created, the idea of....well...preparing us for something seems weird.


I am not sure, but I have reached the same conclusion you have - there must be a reason for all of this. I believe that God's plan for mankind will not end in this world. But ultimately, we do not know the answer to this question either.

And one more thing, why would God not be more explicit in this world than he is? Why is he not talking to us just like he talked to the Israelites at Mount Sinai, or in Egypt? Instead, we have to learn this from other human beings, who learned this from other humans beings, who learned this from other humans beings, who thousands of years may have talked to a supernatural entity, but we actually have no proof of this.


This is the first question in your post that I will admit actually bothers me, and its one that I ponder a lot. If I ever have an answer, I will let you know. But I do believe that God has given us evidences and ways to discover Him and so on, but ultimately, youre right, things could be a lot easier. If another Christian wants to jump in on this one, go ahead.

Now, youll notice "I dont know" is the answer to most of these questions. I think this is a perfectly fine answer - it is my belief that if you ever meet someone who claims to know everything about their god, that god probably does not exist, at least not in the form they believe. Most of your questions I feel totally content not knowing. Some of them bother me, like that last one, but Ive had questions before and God has provided answers, so I am not ready to hop off of the theism train just yet. God has earned my patience.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#25TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 2:26:50 PM
mercurydude posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.

Sounds like you're saying that he's too inept to create anything that isn't flawed, despite his already having done so when he created angels. Besides, the question was about making heaven, as in just skipping to the happy ending part; that way, he doesn't even have to bother with those that he desires not to perish, because they'd never have been created to disobey him in the first place.


What the heck? How does it sound like that?

I am saying that a free agent is by definition capable of being flawed, and a newly born free agent has no experience to draw from.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#26mercurydudePosted 1/25/2013 2:32:44 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
mercurydude posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.

Sounds like you're saying that he's too inept to create anything that isn't flawed, despite his already having done so when he created angels. Besides, the question was about making heaven, as in just skipping to the happy ending part; that way, he doesn't even have to bother with those that he desires not to perish, because they'd never have been created to disobey him in the first place.


What the heck? How does it sound like that?

I am saying that a free agent is by definition capable of being flawed, and a newly born free agent has no experience to draw from.


You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that people who ultimately go to heaven don't end up being free anyway. They're stuck there, and they're stuck worshiping YHWH, plus he wipes away the tears from their eyes over their loved ones not being there, likely eliminating memories of said loved ones in the process so that no suffering is experienced in the Hereafter. So why bother with this experiment in freedom if they aren't able to retain it and he desires that none should perish, as the Bible tells us?
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"I am going to light a fire in Paradise and pour water on Hell, so that both veils completely vanish." - Rabia Al-'Adawiyya
#27TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/25/2013 2:33:49 PM
mercurydude posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
mercurydude posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.

Sounds like you're saying that he's too inept to create anything that isn't flawed, despite his already having done so when he created angels. Besides, the question was about making heaven, as in just skipping to the happy ending part; that way, he doesn't even have to bother with those that he desires not to perish, because they'd never have been created to disobey him in the first place.


What the heck? How does it sound like that?

I am saying that a free agent is by definition capable of being flawed, and a newly born free agent has no experience to draw from.


You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that people who ultimately go to heaven don't end up being free anyway. They're stuck there, and they're stuck worshiping YHWH, plus he wipes away the tears from their eyes over their loved ones not being there, likely eliminating memories of said loved ones in the process so that no suffering is experienced in the Hereafter. So why bother with this experiment in freedom if they aren't able to retain it and he desires that none should perish, as the Bible tells us?


The Bible does not even state heaven as our eternal afterlife. God is going to make a New Earth. I dont see any reason we wouldnt be free - the people there will simply be the sort of people that do not seek to do evil.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#28fudrickPosted 1/25/2013 2:42:49 PM
Honestly TRJ, that seems like a somewhat odd interpretation. I feel that unless the ability to change is removed, evil is going to creep back into the new earth just as it is here on this earth.
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#29JonWood007Posted 1/25/2013 2:46:52 PM

Can you prove he did?


First recordings of Yahweh and all. So that's when we start getting into Judaism, roughly 3000 years ago. God may have interacted before then, but we have no proof of it. Heck, I'm really skeptical that he's interacted with us at all. The Bible reads like a document that belongs in its time to me, not a fountain of divine intelligence. Do we have proof God interacts at all?

I would argue that God gave us more than enough resources to feed our people. It is our failure that has created these problems youre talking about.


1) Famines are not accounted for. I'm kind of malthusian in my views on this. Shortages happen, and have nothing to do with us.

2) Why does God "bless" some with so much, and others with so little? He could've chosen to just give us what we need?

If evil actions had no consequences, how would we grow, and is it truly free will if you cannot impact the universe with your actions?


Why do we need to grow? What's the point of growth? I know you don't seem to know the answer, but really, what is God's purpose here?

Here's a question for you, where do you think I stand? My personal growth as a Christian eventually made me an atheist. I realized that I was believing a lot of stuff for poor reasons so I ditched the theism train to accept a belief system that made a lot more sense. But in a lot of Christian sects, if not all, that's a bad thing. If I lost my faith, I must've been sinning, or Satan must've gotten hold of me. Basically, to them, I clearly did something wrong. Now, I know those may come off as strawmen to you, but that's why I'm asking you this. If a believer becomes a nonbeliever through intellectual growth, and begins actively opposing much of his former religious belief system under the pretenses that it's false and actually holds back personal development, is such a person "saved"? Where would he stand in heaven? A major thing that pisses me off about a lot of Christianity (which is why I asked the first handful of questions I did) is that they think I'm lost, that I'm the bad guy, that I must turn back, I must dumb myself down, I must stop thinking, or get my thinking on the right page or I'm never going to enter heaven. Is insubordination, even to God, always a bad thing? Really curious how you'll respond to this, since my take on my deconversion is that it's been a major learning experience for me, I feel like I got rid of a lot of faulty beliefs and replaced them with better ones, that I'm more mature, that I have grown morally (which is why I have no issues with even criticizing God's morality in the other topic), but Christianity tries to stigmatize this sort of growth.

I am not sure, but I have reached the same conclusion you have - there must be a reason for all of this. I believe that God's plan for mankind will not end in this world. But ultimately, we do not know the answer to this question either.


Not sure about this. I used to believe in God having purposes for us. Purposes for humanity, even purposes in my own life. After really wracking my brain over this for years, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't see a purpose. Why do you believe there is one?
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#30JonWood007Posted 1/25/2013 2:54:18 PM(edited)
This is the first question in your post that I will admit actually bothers me, and its one that I ponder a lot. If I ever have an answer, I will let you know. But I do believe that God has given us evidences and ways to discover Him and so on, but ultimately, youre right, things could be a lot easier. If another Christian wants to jump in on this one, go ahead.


Fair enough.

Now, youll notice "I dont know" is the answer to most of these questions. I think this is a perfectly fine answer - it is my belief that if you ever meet someone who claims to know everything about their god, that god probably does not exist, at least not in the form they believe. Most of your questions I feel totally content not knowing. Some of them bother me, like that last one, but Ive had questions before and God has provided answers, so I am not ready to hop off of the theism train just yet. God has earned my patience.


Fair enough, but why do you believe in the first place then? I don't know can be an acceptable answer if you have reason to believe that what you believe is true (although you may be missing some information), but I honestly don't see any reason. It's the major reason I deconverted. I literally ran out of reasons to believe to begin with, and my current worldview makes a whole lot of sense in comparison. Taking God out of the question suddenly made that massive flurry of questions in my mind go away. Sure, now I grapple with others, but I feel like I have solid reasons for my views now, when before I realized I've been losing my reasons to believe for years and was just clinging on out of doubt and fear. I will also say I don't know everything, but my views make more sense. What I do believe, I have reasons to believe, and what I don't believe, I either have reasons not to, or no reasons or evidence to do so. It's the logical framework I'm working within now that's really important.
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