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God's a nutter

#31cyclonekrusePosted 1/25/2013 6:39:57 PM
From: stevo6452 | #001
Seriously, why create such a barbaric universe, where innocent creatures are torn apart and eaten alive, dying in perhaps the most horrific way possible.

This assumes that there is some inherent moral value to these creatures. Bacteria are torn apart and ingested by other bacteria or other organisms (or due to just plain old chemistry), but we rarely feel like it was "evil" for them to die in such a fashion, or at least I've never heard it argued that it was evil for bacteria to die. So I think you need to refine what you mean by "innocent creatures." Not that what you're saying is necessarily wrong. I just think it would helpful to pin down precisely where creatures dying starts becoming "evil."

Why not create a nice universe, where we can float around as spirits, talking telepathicly to each other?

What would be the point of that? I'm not saying there absolutely wouldn't be one, but I just don't see it. To me, life loses meaning if nothing has consequences, especially potentially negative consequences. In a "nice" world such as that, there wouldn't be any scientific advancement. After all, there would be no need to learn anything. We'd all have everything we needed at all times. And if you got everything you wanted at all times, how would you discern "value"? Seems difficult to think of how much something means to you when you didn't have to work for it. At all.

That's how I see it, anyway.
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#32serpentslayerPosted 1/25/2013 6:55:14 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
serpentslayer posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
JonWood007 posted...
If heaven exists and all the great stuff you say is true....why not just make heaven?

And don't say "sin", because suffering and death were around long before us, according to evolutionary theory.


Sin.

If God had made the world with a bunch of new creations, they would have sinned and ruined the whole deal. So he gave us a place to become better folks, overcome evil, and then start again in a new world as free agents with the wisdom and experience and willpower it takes to avoid evil.


They only would sin if God wanted them to. If a robot malfunctions, it's not the robot's fault.


I dont believe humans are deterministic robots.


Even if you don't, you have to believe that our psychology causes us to think and act in certain ways. Any evil tendencies are due to psychological issues or weaknesses in the human psyche. God created psychopathy and mob rule.
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God is man helping man: this is the way to everlasting glory. -Pliny the Elder
#33almasbabyPosted 1/25/2013 8:29:21 PM
kozlo100 posted...
See this was kind of my main point in that now 800 post threadnought that shall not be named.

Instead of asking why God would create a universe that looks like ours, we should take our universe and ask if it looks like it was created by a benevolent omnipotent being.

How you frame the question changes the whole shape of the discussion.


It all depends on what the purpose serves. Did God create us so we would just suffer and die, or is our suffering a prelude to a joy we couldn't otherwise fully appreciate? If the latter is true, then yes, this is the kind of universe a benevolent being would create.
#34kozlo100Posted 1/26/2013 3:24:05 PM
almasbaby posted...
It all depends on what the purpose serves. Did God create us so we would just suffer and die, or is our suffering a prelude to a joy we couldn't otherwise fully appreciate? If the latter is true, then yes, this is the kind of universe a benevolent being would create.


You're still asking the question the wrong way 'round.

The question, using the phrasing you are, should be this: Does out universe look like one built for the purpose of allowing us to appreciate a particular kind of joy?
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#35JonWood007Posted 1/26/2013 3:30:12 PM
kozlo100 posted...
See this was kind of my main point in that now 800 post threadnought that shall not be named.

Instead of asking why God would create a universe that looks like ours, we should take our universe and ask if it looks like it was created by a benevolent omnipotent being.

How you frame the question changes the whole shape of the discussion.


These are actually similar questions with similar answers if you ask me.

When you're asking why God would create a universe that looks like ours, you're more or less implying the same thing: that it seems wacky that a benevolent and omnipotent being would create something like this in some ways.
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#36almasbabyPosted 1/27/2013 9:07:46 PM
kozlo100 posted...
almasbaby posted...
It all depends on what the purpose serves. Did God create us so we would just suffer and die, or is our suffering a prelude to a joy we couldn't otherwise fully appreciate? If the latter is true, then yes, this is the kind of universe a benevolent being would create.


You're still asking the question the wrong way 'round.

The question, using the phrasing you are, should be this: Does out universe look like one built for the purpose of allowing us to appreciate a particular kind of joy?


You could only answer that question in retrospect after you've experienced the joy. Otherwise, I'd say the universe looks like a hungry beast feeding on itself, voraciously and without mercy. But we can hope it's otherwise, and indeed some of us do.