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God is a logical necessity

#1ScottSweatshirtPosted 1/29/2013 12:05:00 PM
There really shouldnt be any reason for one to demand proof of God when the answer is a self proclaimed truth that any reasonable and rational person shouldnt have problems accepting.

Its a simple argument really.

Design essentially requires a designer

Now this fact of life comes natural to us as our minds automatically assumes this principle. For instance, if you were stranded on a island and came across a stone hut the first thought that would cross you mind is who built it and who lived there. Not how did it get there or sit there wondering if a tornado came through constructed it by chance

On a much smaller account, if instead you came across the words SOS written across the desert sands you would not assume it was a product of the wind or the crashing waves. The point is you immediately assume the need for a designer when you something requiring design or purpose.

Is it possible that it could have happened by accident? Hmm, there is perhaps a chance out of a trillion but what self respecting human being would accept those impossible odds as there answer? This is exactly the same reasoning atheist use to support their off base belief system. Why do they? Because its the only explanation they can arrive at. There are no alternatives so the impossible is made to be believable. Everything happened by chance. Anything and everything is possible with time by its side. This is the philosophy of the atheist as if life is some simple lego piece.

The brain is the most complex creation in the natural world and in many ways it is comparable to a computer except its far more advanced of course. But I digress

There is evidence of design in the universe therfore that implies the need of a universal designer. The theist claims that to be God, the atheist thinks some abstract, obscure non cognizant force did it by chance over the course of a trillion years.

Now tell me what belief system requires more faith? I think you already know the answer

Lastly, I think people convolute this simple truth when they learn to idealize science as some form of self serving authority. When science in itself is evidence of design. The science deals with the how while God deals with the why.
People seem to think that the two are the antithesis of each other when they are actually complementary.

I bring a final example something we can all relate to, the internet.

You can analyze how it works, understand it and successfully determine how it functionally operates. Thats is the science of the matter however but the transcendent question of what determined its fine infrastructure remains and that obviously was a cognizant being the objective in mind

Didnt have enough energy to proof read so it is what it is.
#2WelshGamer82Posted 1/29/2013 12:09:36 PM(edited)
Dude, you're going to get so ripped.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyle's_fallacy
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#3lastheroPosted 1/29/2013 12:15:08 PM(edited)
The brain is the most complex creation in the natural world and in many ways it is comparable to a computer except its far more advanced of course


Your argument is really poor and I'm sure someone else will explain why soon enough, but I have to go to work soon, so I don't have the time.

I will ask one thing, though - when you say 'complex', what are you comparing it to? Complex in comparison to...what? How, exactly, do you measure complexity?
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#4hamsandwich3141Posted 1/29/2013 12:23:28 PM
ScottSweatshirt posted...

Didnt have enough energy to proof read so it is what it is.


That's funny, because I didn't have enough energy to read past the first couple sentences.
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#5chareyPosted 1/29/2013 12:24:20 PM
Oh look it's this argument again.

Before we need to find a designer you need to prove that the universe was designed, yes the human brain IS too complex to have ended up like is is from chance but evolution isn't chance and the first brains where nowhere near the same level as ours.

Evolution is a combination of random mutations and natural selection. Being smarter gives a creature a better chance at survival so any mutations that make a creature smarter will give the creature a better chance of passing on it's genes and the mutations to the next generation and conversely mutations the made a creature dumber will decrease the chance that the stupid gene will be passed on. This happened enough that humans gained extremely complex brains.

Before you try to debunk a theory at least try to have a basic understanding of what the theory is.
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#6lastheroPosted 1/29/2013 12:25:03 PM
hamsandwich3141 posted...
ScottSweatshirt posted...

Didnt have enough energy to proof read so it is what it is.


That's funny, because I didn't have enough energy to read past the first couple sentences.


I don't even know why it cost him so much energy. These aren't new arguments or anything - chances are, he's just regurgitating crap he heard from somewhere else. It couldn't have taken that much effort to write, because he didn't think it up himself.
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#7ScottSweatshirt(Topic Creator)Posted 1/29/2013 12:25:31 PM
lasthero posted...
The brain is the most complex creation in the natural world and in many ways it is comparable to a computer except its far more advanced of course


Your argument is really poor and I'm sure someone else will explain why soon enough, but I have to go to work soon, so I don't have the time.

I will ask one thing, though - when you say 'complex', what are you comparing it? Complex in comparison to...what?



In comparison to the technological advances brought forth by man which obviously took varying degrees of intellect to create. The brain, however, is still unrivaled in comparison with something to match or replicate its complexity. The computer being the closest, yet still inadequate,which I why I mentioned it in the same post the answers the question very youre asking me.

I love how you try to escape the truth of it though so you try to speak in philosophical terms on trying to redefine what is truly complex in a world of contingency
#8Lord_IchmaelPosted 1/29/2013 12:29:05 PM
Topic: Standard argument from design.

Standard rebuttal: Surely something complex enough to have created a complex universe needs an even more complex creator, and that creator needs a creator, and so on for infinity.
#9ElderMisanthropyPosted 1/29/2013 12:32:26 PM
ScottSweatshirt posted...
There really shouldnt be any reason for one to demand proof of God when the answer is a self proclaimed truth that any reasonable and rational person shouldnt have problems accepting.


From the onset, you're digging yourself an incredibly deep hole. You claim that demanding proof of a god is without merit because the evidence for its existence is so self evident that any rational or reasonable person should accept it. What we must gather from this is either: you are about to provide that supposed overwhelming evidence, or you're simply reassuring yourself, and actually have little to offer.

If the former, then you've set yourself up to fail. If the latter, you've still set yourself up to fail. If you're going to provide an argument for the existence of something, it's best to just cut to the chase. Don't preface it with lofty claims of how obvious the truth of your position is to any rational person. If you don't successfully deliver a convincing argument, it makes you look that much worse.

Its a simple argument really.

Design essentially requires a designer

Now this fact of life comes natural to us as our minds automatically assumes this principle. For instance, if you were stranded on a island and came across a stone hut the first thought that would cross you mind is who built it and who lived there. Not how did it get there or sit there wondering if a tornado came through constructed it by chance

On a much smaller account, if instead you came across the words SOS written across the desert sands you would not assume it was a product of the wind or the crashing waves. The point is you immediately assume the need for a designer when you something requiring design or purpose.


The Watchmaker argument is a very, very bad argument, and if this is truly the basis for your position that "God is a logical necessity," you've got a tremendous amount of reading and researching to do. Yes, we know that stone huts and SOS alerts are designed, and therefore require a designer. We don't know that brains, grains of sand, stones, tree bark, or leaves were designed.

Is it possible that it could have happened by accident? Hmm, there is perhaps a chance out of a trillion but what self respecting human being would accept those impossible odds as there answer? This is exactly the same reasoning atheist use to support their off base belief system. Why do they? Because its the only explanation they can arrive at. There are no alternatives so the impossible is made to be believable. Everything happened by chance. Anything and everything is possible with time by its side. This is the philosophy of the atheist as if life is some simple lego piece.


I have no problem believing that most things happened by accident, or random chance. Given the 13 billion years preceding human life, I think it's a fair assumption that we are not the final goal of the Universe; we're simply one part in a large chain of natural events.

There is evidence of design in the universe therfore that implies the need of a universal designer. The theist claims that to be God, the atheist thinks some abstract, obscure non cognizant force did it by chance over the course of a trillion years.

Now tell me what belief system requires more faith? I think you already know the answer


I think the belief system that requires more faith is the one that says "There really shouldnt be any reason for one to demand proof of God."

Essentially, your argument is an appeal to ignorance like other ID proponents utilize. "We know stone huts and the internet were designed, therefore brains were also designed and require a designer." Sorry, you'll have to do better.
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#10ScottSweatshirt(Topic Creator)Posted 1/29/2013 12:39:37 PM
charey posted...
Oh look it's this argument again.

Before we need to find a designer you need to prove that the universe was designed, yes the human brain IS too complex to have ended up like is is from chance but evolution isn't chance and the first brains where nowhere near the same level as ours.

Evolution is a combination of random mutations and natural selection. Being smarter gives a creature a better chance at survival so any mutations that make a creature smarter will give the creature a better chance of passing on it's genes and the mutations to the next generation and conversely mutations the made a creature dumber will decrease the chance that the stupid gene will be passed on. This happened enough that humans gained extremely complex brains.

Before you try to debunk a theory at least try to have a basic understanding of what the theory is.


Oh look its this same regurgitated argument again
Not only is that but the whole argument of evolution is irrelevant to the topic

If you want to ignore that fact the fact that the universe was designed then go ahead and keep feeding on your own ignorance. Thats not my problem.
The organs cushioned inside of your body where designed to commit to a set of different functions to ensure proper bodily function which keep you alive.

But I know what you are going to say. That was an accident along with everything else in the world, Ha, I understand you have to believe that to continue supporting what you do but it sadly doesnt change the reality of the matter :(