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If free will is an illusion

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User Info: kozlo100

3 years ago#31
DarkContractor posted...
yet where does it emerge? We don't have any stepping stones whatsoever of the rise of this illusion. something initiated it, do all humans not possess this illusion (not to say some aren't aware that its an illusion, but in our instinctual state we fall for it)? In fact, I can't even imagine what a stepping stone would be like. How do you have half an illusion of free will? Even if you could, it'd be utterly useless and would not emerge in every single human ancestor, bringing us right back to irreducible complexity.

things do not have to be 'useful' but they do have to have a cause in determinism.

The obvious guess is that it emerges as a by-product of our brains evolving capability for ever more complex information processing and decision making. There's nothing irreducibly complex about that.

Your questions seem to be implying that the illusion came about after self-awareness did. You haven't really any reason to think that. It's also not the kind of illusion that one 'falls for', but rather one that is just a quirk of how we're built. Rather like how your voice sounds different than you think it does.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: JonWood007

3 years ago#32
DarkContractor posted...
From: JonWood007 | #009

and you say that theists move mountains of evidence :O here's a tip: If we can't find a cause for this illusion, not only is it useless but it is also an example of irreducible complexity. I guess it's plausible that we find a cause for the illusion one day, but, and I know this is a God of Gaps, we never will. I'll humbly look like an idiot and never use this argument again if we do (and do a lot of crying as I write it down in my diary!!11!!1)

as for the second, what did this have to do with anything? I'm not saying I believe in God because of free will. Lol. But to answer your question, the universe is not capable of divine intervention.

Also, time is not some outside force guiding a sequence of events in a logical matter. time is a human made measurement (not an observation, that would require tangible evidence of a physical force guiding chronology) of observing the relationship of one atom changing in relation to the universe around it. As such, I would fathom that God isn't made of the particles of this universe ("My Kingdom is not of this world", etc) and as such any theorizing about how time comes into play for Him is mere speculation, while as with the universe I can directly observe its atoms and make observations. Doesn't modern science conclude that the universe is only 100 million years old, anyways?

Ok, fair enough, he's not of this world, but then again, that means there is absolutely no way to verify his existence, and absolutely no reason to believe.

The whole thing is, we don't need to know what the cause is to believe in the illusion. As for evidence, consider the entire world of social sciences. Making connections between A and B. The fact that there are correlations means that are behavior is at least somewhat influenced by external circumstances. So, I'm more or less citing the entire nature of social sciences and all conclusions derived as evidence. Because if there were no associations between external circumstances, our characteristics, and our behavior, then social sciences just wouldn't work.

The thing is, our behavior is somewhat predictable. The real question is to what extent. No free will existing is unknown at this point, because we have no way of pinning down every single variable that exists to demonstrate this, but a case could be made it is not absolute. Free will might be an illusion. I'm not saying it definitely is, because this is theoretical, but it's very well possible if we could control for every factor that exists. We might just be like input in, output out.
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