This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Peter Heck video - "The Sound of Abortion"

#31ThuggernautzPosted 1/30/2013 9:53:46 AM
Thuggernautz posted...

Another thing, if you wish to argue that the state or federal definition of personhood is incorrect, then you should demonstrate why.
#32ThuggernautzPosted 1/30/2013 9:55:14 AM
DarkContractor posted...
elaborate, please.


Sex is an important part of most relationships, provides a ton of health benefits and causes tension should there be a distinct lack of it. Couples are realistically not going to abstain from sex until they are both 100% sure they want and can support a child. Hence, unrealistic.
#33Faust_8Posted 1/30/2013 10:07:37 AM
I think this discussion would benefit from people toning down the provocative language. Restricting abortion is not equivalent to demoting women to walking uteri. Suggesting it is just muddies the conversation. The same goes for calling abortion a "Holocaust." Even if a pro-lifer thinks it's accurate, all the word serves to do is evoke an emotional response by calling up the disgust and sadness we feel about what happened to Jewish people in WW2.

Larger point: If we want to have a reasonable discussion about abortion, we need to quit with the unnecessary emotional appeals. Also, we need to stop guessing at the other side's motives. Neither side is monolithic in their reasoning. Treating them as if they are and painting with an overbroad brush doesn't help anything.


Thank you for this, and you're right. But remember I was responding to people comparing abortion to holocausts and claiming we're robotic in terms of considering abortion, so I didn't exactly feel inclined to treat them any better than they did me.

However, I do feel that forcing a woman to complete any pregnancy regardless of ANY circumstances is essentially implying that her uterus is the most important thing about her, and is her true purpose. How could it not imply that?

It's also not so correct to say this. Even if we grant that some abortions "only" terminate a small clump of undifferentiated cells, not all abortions happen like that. Some happen much later in the pregnancy where the above characterization doesn't really hold. Or maybe it does hold. After all, when humans become "sentient" is somewhat of an open question. It might not be until well after birth. If that's the case, you'll have to defend why it's okay to terminate a full-term fetus but not okay to terminate an infant

The point is that the type of abortions pro-choicers are most comfortable with is when it's just cells. We disapprove of later-term abortions even more than early ones. But even then I don't want rights restricted just because I disapprove.

I don't think everything will be fine if we restrict abortion. Some women will suffer, we'll have more kids that parents cannot afford, we'll have more kids born into poverty, and, eventually, crime will probably increase. However, we can combat those things in other ways without resorting to abortion. A big one is better sex education and cheaply available (if not freely available) contraception.

We're trying to bring down crime and increase contraception use now, why do you think we could suddenly be much better at it in the future? Wouldn't we already be succeeding if we knew how, or had the right support? And I really don't like how cold you come off when considering "Some women will suffer, we'll have more kids that parents cannot afford, we'll have more kids born into poverty, and, eventually, crime will probably increase."

Isn't that kinda, ya know, important? All for an intangible benefit?

I also don't take a restriction of someone's actions lightly. I too find furries to be strange but wouldn't dream of preventing their ability to do...whatever. It's just when one person's actions affect another person's life that restrictions become necessary. So what this boils down to is the question of when personhood begins. And also the implications of that if personhood begins pre-birth.

There's just no logical basis for pre-birth personhood. Go down that road and a seed is a tree and an egg is a chicken. Surely there is more to a person that just possessing the right amount of chromosomes?

I'm not sure if there is such a good contrast there. Sure animals can feel pain and such but we routinely put them down without much remorse.

We don't put them down without good reason.
---
You are the universe
Expressing itself as a human, for a little while
#34kts123Posted 1/30/2013 10:12:56 AM(edited)
lasthero posted...
Dude. You and I both value all human life. We just disagree on what human life actually is.

You don't seriously think that all the people who support abortion rights do so 'because they don't value human life' do you? Is that a thing you actually, really believe?


Unfortunately a lot of people in the pro-choice camp want to frame pro-lifers as anti-women. But hey, I guess it isn't any fun being branded as a baby killer, so I guess both sides are even! I honestly find the debate about the moment of life very interesting, unfortunately modern political rhetoric has made it almost impossible to discuss the root of the disagreement.
#35JonWood007Posted 1/30/2013 10:17:15 AM
I find most people who are pro choice to have a psychological bias. What I mean by that is that for them, the unborn fetus is not tangible. In other words, people who are pro choice have no emotional connection. They will be all up in arms when they see one of those aspca commercials, but seem to drop the ball on abortion because they think they know when life begins


Heaven forbid that people empathize with a woman who has tons of cares and troubles over a nonsentient clump of cells unaware of its own existence!


The video was only counting American lives lost. Did you just not stop and think for a few before smashing your keyboard furiously looking for links to debunk its counts?!


Just saying, it's a horribly biased account. Not only Americans died in WW2 you know.

I happen to find pro-choicer's as disgusting and convenient.


I used to think this way. Funny thing is, when you take your views outside of a theological context and begin grappling with the issues yourself instead of dealing with a pre-canned definition of life that comes from Bible verses and uneducated arguments, you'll notice the case for pro life is weak.

I also find it disgusting how republicans are trying to take away women's rights in this matter. If you don't want an abortion, if you don't like abortion, don't get one. It's that simple. Don't tell other people what they should do because it violates your religious beliefs. We have separation of church and state after all.

Also, if you want me to treat your views with more respect, treat mine with some respect. If you're wondering why I'm blasting the crap out of pro lifers here it's not because they're pro life, it's because they're up on some moral high horse demonizing people who have the opposite point of view.

Also, just an fyi, if Christians would actually stop freaking out over the contraception issue, we would have less abortions. Yes, I know that contraception does fail, and someone mentioned that. But point is, states that promote solid sex ed courses and access to contraception have a lot lower unwanted pregnancy rates than states that rely on more "Christian" approaches to the sex issue.

I guess God is the biggest pro-abortion promoting doctor of all, considering all the miscarriages in the world. I don't see anyone up in arms over that.


Well it's okay if God does it, because he's perfect and knows better or something like that.

I'm for people being responsible for their actions.

Having sex always comes with risks, protection or not. If a person is unwilling to deal with those risks, they shouldn't engage in it.

What you and I feel are reasonable preparation and responses to those risks I'm sure vary.

I feel it's responsible to prepare for children before engaging in sex. Obviously, I feel marriage, steady income, and a stable home are part of that. Does that ensure that an unplanned pregnancy may occur before all those are in place? No, but what fault is that of the child?


Ok, but how about this. Take your view outside of your obvious religiously informed context. We now have to actually study fetal development, weigh the costs and benefits, and determine when a fetus's life is more important than the woman's right to our body. If you actually study this in a secular manner, you'll notice that the issue is nowhere near as black and white as you think it is. Obviously, late term abortion is screwed up, but early term...not necessarily.

http://bible.cc/exodus/21-22.htm

I also want to leave that there for you pro lifers.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#36lastheroPosted 1/30/2013 10:26:26 AM(edited)
kts123 posted...
lasthero posted...
Dude. You and I both value all human life. We just disagree on what human life actually is.

You don't seriously think that all the people who support abortion rights do so 'because they don't value human life' do you? Is that a thing you actually, really believe?


Unfortunately a lot of people in the pro-choice camp want to frame pro-lifers as anti-women. But hey, I guess it isn't any fun being branded as a baby killer, so I guess both sides are even!


I dunno, I'd rather you call me a misogynist than a genocidal baby killer. I feel one carries a little more weight than the other. I've known misogynists. My father's a misogynist. I've never met someone who gets pleasure from killing babies, but I imagine such a person would be noticeably less pleasant.
---
X-Men: First Class RPG - Welcoming all new players!
[http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Mutants/index/]
#37Suibom(Topic Creator)Posted 1/30/2013 10:25:54 AM
lasthero posted...


Good. For. You.


I know, right?!

Responsibility is awesome.

Here's hoping the rest of society catches the fever.
---
"Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him!
But the thunder of His power who can understand." - Job 24:14
#38JonWood007Posted 1/30/2013 10:28:22 AM(edited)
Here's another point. How many of you guys here like the republicans? How many of you support their crazy laws saying women must carry stillborn children, have probes stuck up their you know whats, that you can't get an abortion if you're raped because the fetus is evidence, or that you should actually be criminalized for miscarrying. or, if you go to Ireland, you end up dying because the hospital refuses you an abortion even though carrying the pregnancy can KILL YOU.

That's what the pro life camp is all about nowadays. Ridiculous, insane laws.

You see, abortion, in reality, is a very murky issue. You can make an argument on both sides. However, law is a blunt instrument. It's very black and white. And IMO, it's better to have no laws, than bad laws with an issue such as this. You may say you're for exceptions, but the people making laws for you clearly aren't allowing the exceptions that they should. But that's the nature of law. Forcing a black and white context over a very grey issue. The major thing that turned me pro choice, before even fully deconverting, is realizing this fact. Laws against abortion allow a lot of injustices to happen.

Look, you can think what you want about life, and choice, but when the rubber meets the road, choice is clearly the best option if you ask me. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. It's better than forcing a very clunky legal context over the whole issue that leads to people who probably SHOULD have abortions not being allowed to have one. And that does happen over a lot of these proposed laws, and laws in place. Not to mention, take religion out of it, and begin thinking about the issue philosophically, and through science, and the idea that fetuses early on should be granted legal rights is rather weak. It relies on the idea that that's when God decides life begins. I honestly think abortion should be legal up until the third trimester (then you begin getting to questions of sentience, and viability, and feeling pain).
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 4 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HD | W7 | 1366x768
#39TheRealJiraiyaPosted 1/30/2013 10:26:39 AM
Whenever someone complains about abortion, I ask them what they are doing for teen and single mothers and for children in orphanages that makes keeping the child more viable.

Ive yet to receive a satisfactory answer.

Its easy to complain on the internet about other people doing bad things. Its hard to get out there and make the world an easier place to have a baby in. Most "pro-lifers" go for the easy route, and its why I seldomly respect the position.
---
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#40lastheroPosted 1/30/2013 10:27:10 AM
Suibom posted...
lasthero posted...


Good. For. You.


I know, right?!

What I consider to be responsibility is awesome.

Here's hoping the rest of society catches the fever.


Fixed it for you.
---
X-Men: First Class RPG - Welcoming all new players!
[http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Mutants/index/]