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People care more about Christ's death than they do his life.

#41bratt100Posted 2/6/2013 11:03:25 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
Depends if you believe in magic or not.


What do you mean by that?

I am a Christian, if that is what youre asking.


I mean water into wine, raising the dead and creating everything from nothing...you know, magic.


Oh, you mean miracles. Yes, I believe that an all powerful God is capable of doing things humans cant understand, and that he has. Among those incidents he did the things you mentioned.


A rose by any other name.
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.
#42TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/6/2013 11:05:29 PM
bratt100 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
Depends if you believe in magic or not.


What do you mean by that?

I am a Christian, if that is what youre asking.


I mean water into wine, raising the dead and creating everything from nothing...you know, magic.


Oh, you mean miracles. Yes, I believe that an all powerful God is capable of doing things humans cant understand, and that he has. Among those incidents he did the things you mentioned.


A rose by any other name.


So you do think I am a fool?

Why is that?
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#43bratt100Posted 2/6/2013 11:34:53 PM
I happen to think the belief in magic is very foolish as we haven't had a single confirmed case in the past 100 years or so. So yeah I think you have a foolish belief system. Doesn't mean I think your a bad person just misled.
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.
#44bratt100Posted 2/6/2013 11:36:12 PM
God seems to have taken the past century off.
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.
#45TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/6/2013 11:38:57 PM
bratt100 posted...
I happen to think the belief in magic is very foolish as we haven't had a single confirmed case in the past 100 years or so. So yeah I think you have a foolish belief system. Doesn't mean I think your a bad person just misled.


Elaborate on why you believe that is foolish
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#46bratt100Posted 2/6/2013 11:55:16 PM
Magic isn't real. I really don't need to elaborate on that.
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.
#47TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/6/2013 11:55:57 PM
bratt100 posted...
Magic isn't real. I really don't need to elaborate on that.


What proof do you have that what you define as "magic" is not real O.o ?
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#48bratt100Posted 2/7/2013 12:57:50 AM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
Magic isn't real. I really don't need to elaborate on that.


What proof do you have that what you define as "magic" is not real O.o ?


Actually it's up to you to prove its existence not the other way around. I can't prove a negative.

Also do you mind expaining how it doesn't meet the exact definition of magic?
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If you believe in the flying Spaghetti Monster and are 100% proud of it copy this to your sig.
#49TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/7/2013 7:04:59 AM
bratt100 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
Magic isn't real. I really don't need to elaborate on that.


What proof do you have that what you define as "magic" is not real O.o ?


Actually it's up to you to prove its existence not the other way around. I can't prove a negative.

Also do you mind expaining how it doesn't meet the exact definition of magic?


If you cant prove it, you shouldnt claim it. That is a logical error. The truth is, with the evidence you have, you cant know for sure whether it is true or not.

Lets say I was at that party and saw Jesus turn water into wine. My anecdote obviously wouldnt sway you. But would it be sufficient evidence for me, personally, to believe?

My issue with the term magic isnt one of definitions - it clearly isnt the word most people would use for what we are talking about. You are using that particular word because it sounds degrading, correct?
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#50darkmaian23Posted 2/7/2013 8:08:21 AM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
bratt100 posted...
Magic isn't real. I really don't need to elaborate on that.


What proof do you have that what you define as "magic" is not real O.o ?


Actually it's up to you to prove its existence not the other way around. I can't prove a negative.

Also do you mind expaining how it doesn't meet the exact definition of magic?


If you cant prove it, you shouldnt claim it. That is a logical error. The truth is, with the evidence you have, you cant know for sure whether it is true or not.

Lets say I was at that party and saw Jesus turn water into wine. My anecdote obviously wouldn't sway you. But would it be sufficient evidence for me, personally, to believe?

My issue with the term magic isnt one of definitions - it clearly isnt the word most people would use for what we are talking about. You are using that particular word because it sounds degrading, correct?


If I may interject, sir. Calling what was done in the Bible a miracle instead of magic elevates what was done and suggests that it is special somehow. Would you use magic or miracle to describe the working of the gods in Greek myth? I am fairly certain you would just call it magic. You consider that term degrading when applied to the workings of the Christian God because you believe he is real, but I doubt you'd have the same problem if it were applied to Zeus.

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Stage magicians can perform incredible tricks that fool just about any layperson. You think your example of observing Jesus turn water into wine seems to have merit to you because you believe Jesus is God. But what if you read on the news that some random person had been seen to do the same thing. Would you really believe that the man had done magic/performed a miracle?

You are correct in saying that we cannot prove that Jesus didn't do miracles. However, there is no compelling reason to think that such things are possible. Nothing we have learned about the universe through objective means suggests it is possible for magic or anything supernatural really to exist. Sometimes Christians like to point out that in some parts of the world miracles are purported to exist and are believed in. These places also tend to be home to deeply superstitious people lacking in basic education.

Of course, the supernatural is popular in various forms here and in other developed parts of the world. But no positive evidence in favor of such things actually working or being real has ever been discovered. There is also no compelling reason to think that any evidence will ever be discovered based on what we now know about the natural world.

To put it another way, do I need to prove to you that Thor doesn't have a magic hammer or will you simply accept the statement? I believe your response will be to say that I do in the case of an argument such as this, but I feel very strongly that you would only give this reply because I intend to make an analogy between Thor's hammer and Jesus' miracles. No Christian that I've ever met believes in Norse gods whereas they do (obviously) believe in the existence of Yahweh.