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Why I'm no longer an atheist

#21GBALoserPosted 2/2/2013 5:51:55 PM
C_Mat posted...
I appreciate your honesty, TC! When I've imagined the fickle nature of morality on atheism's point of view, it kinda scares me. I think that in itself is the strongest argument against atheism.


Since all the atheists I know minimally have the same moral code of "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself," I fail to see how you could say atheistic morality is "fickle."
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#22DarkContractorPosted 2/2/2013 6:45:22 PM
From: Moorish_Idol | #020
@TC, my interpretation of your story:

You were exposed to things which made you doubt your faith. This doubt led to dismissal of your faith, but you were uncomfortable in your dismissal (and understandably so, since it was a huge part of your life until then), so you tried to bring your family and friends to doubt and dismiss their faith too, so you could justify your own deconversion through social support, unity in thought, etc.

In hindsight, you feel like your attempts to deconvert them were hostile (and unkind), but I think this hostility built over time from their reluctance to accept your doubts as their own or to even consider your doubts as reasonable. And when you failed to deconvert your family and friends, you felt like you also failed to justify your own doubts, and this lack of satisfaction (coupled probably with a sense of solitude) made you return to where you are comfortable: in religion, in faith, and with like-minded individuals.

You didn't need God to give your life beauty and meaning, you needed validation. And atheism wasn't providing that for you.


I was thinking about the same thing just a few minutes before reading that. Evolution is going to make us crave acceptance. the person who receives validation from everyone, while likely vain, is more likely to survive because at critical moments he can depend on those validating him, basically. One of the reasons religion is so successful, it indoctrinates people to accept everyone, the placebo of someone infinitely more significant than you having infinite love for you is an incredibly strong motivator. that said, its not like this indoctrination is a bad thing, but it has 0 impact on whether or not God exists.
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#23JonWood007Posted 2/2/2013 8:12:57 PM
Well there's your problem. You're trying to justify things which have no justification. There is no reason someone should wait until marriage for sex besides a priori religious beliefs. Were you also trying to justify why one should honor the Sabbath without a religious belief that it should be honored?


As someone who is still pretty abstinent on stuff, I'd say there are logical reasons....mainly the possibility of STDs and pregnancy. I won't say I'd wait for marriage any more, but I'd definitely want to be in a committed relationship. No one night stands for me. It's more of a pragmatic thing than a spiritual thing like many Christians make it out to be.
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#24I-NE-IV(Topic Creator)Posted 2/2/2013 10:49:37 PM
You haven't received more truth, you gotta prove that statement. You've only received more theory.

I don't think I have to prove that or could possibly prove it. I'm telling you that I know how to live my life now much better than I used to. That's a kind of truth; a very useful kind. You don't have to believe that.

I will ... stealing.

*yawn* Like I said, it would be very difficult to persuade anyone of the virtue of pre-marital abstinence, prayer, the sabbath or other exclusively religious moral acts. They don't fit into our simplistic models of reality, so you can't really find them by reasoning. Nevertheless, these things elevate and inspire my life, and I found no good substitutes outside religion.

I sympathize with you somewhat on your thoughts about morality. I agree that self-invented morality leaves something to be desired, but at the same time, this applies to religious morality, which is really the self-invented morality of the people who made religion.

I think the difference is the same sort of difference as there is between English and Esperanto, or between the English and metric systems. They're both human-made, but one emerged and one was invented. But whereas language and measurement are approachable by science, morality is really not. I find far more value in emergent morality than in invented morality.

I don't ... harsh.

That's true, I won't deny that. I think I might have over-emphasized that example, though. It was only an example to show how atheism removed a lot of context from my life.

If you want to stick with your current religion, then go for it. Still, it would be nice if you found a belief system that satisfied you scientifically and socially.

I do feel satisfied intellectually, socially and in every other way with my current beliefs.

Also, tc do you believe you feel the Holy Spirit? just wondering.

Absolutely. I love the Spirit ... it makes perfect sense in my life.

Are you a Christian, TC? If so, how does that interact with your lack of belief that god is omnipotent?

I'm Christian. It's not that I believe God isn't all-powerful. What I meant was that if I were to look at the existence of God in an academic way, I would say, "he's probably not there." But I choose not to.

Also, what does it mean for a life to "have truth"?

Mainly I mean truths about how to live. Real, practical morality. Not just abstract truths about the universe.

Well there's your problem. ... honored?

You're trapped in a rationalist bubble. The fact that it doesn't fit into your (likely) rights-based/utilitarian ethics doesn't mean it can't be justified. Besides, I'm not saying it's wrong for you to have pre-marital sex. I'm saying it's wrong for me.

Atheist, Christian or whatever, you sound like a pretty irredeemably terrible person TC, who uses his beliefs, or lack thereof, as an excuse to pretend you are better than others.

I think you're right about my being arrogant, but I don't believe that I'm "right" in an objective way, if that's what you think. But I don't agree that I'm an "irredeemably terrible" person. I don't feel compelled to respond to a silly insult like that.

@TC, my interpretation ... for you.

I don't think my story is quite so easily reducible to pop psychology, but I think you've hit upon part of the truth, sure. And again, I must have over-emphasized the bit about my hostility to believers; that was really only an example.
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I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, not to hate them, but to understand them.
--Baruch Spinoza
#25PhiZZiZlePosted 2/2/2013 11:06:39 PM
OP, i know you're being harassed in this topic, but don't worry about defending yourself to a bunch of screen names on the internet. I thought you story was pretty cool, and more than a little insightful. Thanks.
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#26I-NE-IV(Topic Creator)Posted 2/2/2013 11:07:58 PM
OP, i know you're being harassed in this topic, but don't worry about defending yourself to a bunch of screen names on the internet. I thought you story was pretty cool, and more than a little insightful. Thanks.

Appreciate it!
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I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, not to hate them, but to understand them.
--Baruch Spinoza
#27Far421Posted 2/3/2013 12:36:22 AM(edited)
TC, if you look at the topic about whether children should read the Bible and skip the first couple of pages you'll find a discussion between kozlo and I relating to how a practical, secular morality works as part of an attempt to address the question of whether a parent should be able to force their child not to take medicine in favor of faith healing. Of course, if you're familiar with the arguments, I don't think there's very much new to see there.
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#28LastManStandingPosted 2/3/2013 12:43:47 AM
Good time to reread the Holy Bible. Word of God does wonders, cleanses:)
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Divine Mercy - God Loves you as a sinner.
Christ Said: Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) Day of Mercy was declared in 2000
#29hunter_gohanPosted 2/3/2013 12:36:00 PM
JonWood007 posted...
As someone who is still pretty abstinent on stuff, I'd say there are logical reasons....mainly the possibility of STDs and pregnancy. I won't say I'd wait for marriage any more, but I'd definitely want to be in a committed relationship. No one night stands for me. It's more of a pragmatic thing than a spiritual thing like many Christians make it out to be.


Maybe I should modify that to say no moral reasons(besides the aforementioned a priori religious belief). I can certainly get why someone would have a view like yours, but that doesn't mean someone who doesn't practice that is being immoral.

I-NE-IV posted...
Like I said, it would be very difficult to persuade anyone of the virtue of pre-marital abstinence, prayer, the sabbath or other exclusively religious moral acts.


Wow umm, so you were trying to justify honoring the Sabbath? Man I thought that was a joke when I typed it.

Nevertheless, these things elevate and inspire my life, and I found no good substitutes outside religion.
...
What I meant was that if I were to look at the existence of God in an academic way, I would say, "he's probably not there." But I choose not to.


From everything you're saying in this thread it does seem like you don't actually believe. It seems like you're just faking it because it benefits you.

You're trapped in a rationalist bubble. The fact that it doesn't fit into your (likely) rights-based/utilitarian ethics doesn't mean it can't be justified. Besides, I'm not saying it's wrong for you to have pre-marital sex. I'm saying it's wrong for me.


If it's not immoral for another person to do the opposite of this, then I don't see how it's a moral viewpoint. It's wrong for me to eat mushrooms. Mainly because I think they're absolutely disgusting, and I can't figure out why people would want to eat fungi for the taste, but that doesn't mean that's a moral viewpoint. (Certain shrooms notwithstanding that are eaten for reasons other then their taste. Though I still have to soldier through that because eww)
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#30GBALoserPosted 2/3/2013 12:57:46 PM
I-NE-IV posted...
OP, i know you're being harassed in this topic, but don't worry about defending yourself to a bunch of screen names on the internet. I thought you story was pretty cool, and more than a little insightful. Thanks.

Appreciate it!


I'm not sure if people are so much harassing you as they are making sure your conversion is for the right personal reason. The deconverts do the same to other deconverts from I've seen. Any real opposition seems to come for the really high-strung individuals here.

Anyway, I'll say as I usually say to any recent convert/decovert -- continue your search for faith on your terms, not what someone else tells you to think or believe. May you find what makes sense to you spiritually no matter where it leads.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman