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What's a good argument for people who ask "why does God let bad things happen".

#41FlashOfLightPosted 2/5/2013 1:39:04 PM
fudrick posted...

Yeah! If god never would have made these diseases which have killed so many people, we wouldn't have cures for those diseases which wouldn't exist. Thanks, god!


The argument brought up in the main title, at least - I think, is referring to general problems with evil, not ones based on judgment, what right is, and punishment, which are different subject matters. Nevertheless, I knew it might be brought up, but I wasn't dealing or focusing on any of those things, to keep the TC's intent, hopefully, simple.
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#42kozlo100Posted 2/5/2013 1:47:54 PM
almasbaby posted...
It's not a setup. It's just the way it is, and we've been duly notified by the prophets.


That's the rub. Yes, it does matter how the father acts, and while it's not a setup exactly, it was set up that way.

To me, there's a fundamental difference between a father protecting his child from a harsh world that they just happen to live in, and a father creating a harsh world to protect his child from so that his child will only be happy if he stays close.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#43almasbabyPosted 2/5/2013 2:20:19 PM
kozlo100 posted...
almasbaby posted...
It's not a setup. It's just the way it is, and we've been duly notified by the prophets.


That's the rub. Yes, it does matter how the father acts, and while it's not a setup exactly, it was set up that way.

To me, there's a fundamental difference between a father protecting his child from a harsh world that they just happen to live in, and a father creating a harsh world to protect his child from so that his child will only be happy if he stays close.


The important thing is to stay close. I could cry out "God, why did you create this hellhole for me to stumble in?" Or I could just stay close knowing I can avoid hell if I do. If you really want to be disturbed, think of Job.

He stayed close yet God gave him hell anyway. Job was cool at first, humbly accepting God's will finding comfort in knowing God was with him as he put him through these trials. But eventually he broke and cursed the day he was born. In the end, though, God gave him back (and then some) everything he took away from him.

The message there is things may seem hopeless, but God is with you in spite of your certainty that you've been abandoned. To you that might seem like a cruel cat and mouse game. To me, the important thing is that I'm not abandoned.
#44kozlo100Posted 2/5/2013 2:28:38 PM
The pragmatic thing is to stay close, and I would do if I thought such was actually the circumstance in which I lived, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a disturbing situation.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#45ThuggernautzPosted 2/5/2013 2:57:20 PM
kozlo100 posted...
The pragmatic thing is to stay close, and I would do if I thought such was actually the circumstance in which I lived, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a disturbing situation.


Yes, like the pragmatic thing to do is not anger your abusive spouse, or violently abusive parents. That is what this analogy reminds me of.
#46kozlo100Posted 2/5/2013 3:15:45 PM(edited)
Doubly pragmatic if it is a situation one cannot escape from.

That really is what is so disturbing about the idea though, it is fundamentally abusive. There is the problem of evil, and a bunch of ways to come at it, but I can't see the idea that the world is crafted with the specific intent that one cannot be happy without God as anything but manipulative in an abusive way.

It also doesn't really jive with free will. I mean, if you're going to stack the deck like that, then why not just create automatons? What good is the devotion of a being when you've put him in a situation such that his only viable option is to be devoted to you?
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#47hunter_gohanPosted 2/5/2013 3:22:09 PM
Patriotwolf posted...
Atheists think the only answer too this questions is "I don't know" or otherwise use this ridiculous question to justify their atheism. It's like asking a scientist why the sun is the color that it is.


? You get a very clear, concise, and factual reason?

http://www.universetoday.com/18689/color-of-the-sun/

TL:DR It's white because it's sending out all photons in relatively equal amounts at about 6,000 kelvin. It appears yellow because the atmosphere scatters off the shorter wavelengths.

almasbaby posted...
The message there is things may seem hopeless, but God is with you in spite of your certainty that you've been abandoned. To you that might seem like a cruel cat and mouse game. To me, the important thing is that I'm not abandoned.


And it's mentalities like this that abusive spouses thrive on.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#48FlashOfLightPosted 2/5/2013 3:38:35 PM
God is always just and always gives people warnings before things come to disastrous proportions. This is covered in particular in Ezekiel 33, but here is the excerpt dealing with the point at hand ->

"Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head
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He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul."

Ezekiel 3rd Chapter ->

"Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul."

And Peter in Acts 2, likewise -

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

Saint Stephen giving a warning to his generation and ours, in 7th Acts ->

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:"
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#49ThuggernautzPosted 2/5/2013 4:02:49 PM
FlashOfLight posted...
Abusive being gives warning about being abusive


Just like an abusive spouse gives you warning not to do what they don't like or they'll break your nose.
#50kts123Posted 2/5/2013 8:08:48 PM
You know, ultimately it will all come back to your personal relationship with God. If my dad says "I'll get you to work on time tomorrow" I trust he is not trying to deceive me. For me, I find the problem of evil down right silly sometimes in the same way I find it silly when people accuse my dad of being a cruel person (he's doing bill collections these days.) It's a lot easier for me, my dad's son, to see my dad for who he is, because he raised me. I've seen him in ways others just haven't. Now for someone who knows very little about him, they just know he's the big-evil bill collector scrooge.

I imagine in the same way, people hear about God ordering a genocide, and that's a big nugget to swallow. Then they hear him talk about love, acceptance, and taking the punishment of sin upon himself and -- they think "Those can't be the same person! The OT God is clearly evil. The NT God is too loving to be like that."

Well, people have a bad habit of judging people they haven't met. Those who have met God though, they know He's good, even if they can't justify all of His actions. I think a lot of us feel passionately when we hear God called evil, because He is so definitely very good it's like hearing a good person be slandered. It just doesn't seem right to us, that something so kind, loving, understanding, and gentle, would be unfairly criticized.

But as for the arguments themselves, there's no end to the problem of evil. You will never understand why every bad thing happens. Sure man let sin into the world, but sometimes that still seems unfair to us. It helps to know though, that God Himself was not exempt from suffering. If God Himself suffered and died, I don't think we should expect anything more. If anything should be exempt from suffering on account of man's sin, it should be God, and so seeing as how even the Lord suffered from our sin, how much more the rest of us.