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Never understood why Christians value free will over safety from threat of Hell.

#1LunarAmbiencePosted 2/3/2013 11:31:07 PM
That's typically the response you get when you ask why God doesn't prevent all the evil committed in the world. "We need free will!" We could have some kind of perfect utopia where people can only do right and beautiful. Where's the value in a world with free will if it only permits evil in the world along with the risk of eternal torture?

And I really don't see the point. If God wants people to act a certain way, the only difference between depriving them of free will and motivating them through threat and exercise of eternal punishment is that the latter option is infinitely more depraved, senseless, and inefficient.
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The above is both true and false.
#2OrangeWizardPosted 2/3/2013 11:37:30 PM
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.
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"Let's make this quick, I'm double-parked." - Two-face
#3Polish_CrusaderPosted 2/3/2013 11:41:17 PM
It has nothing to do with what I value and what i dont value. Its about what it is and what it isnt. Simple as that.

I dont really have a personal opinion on free will. I know i have it. Sometimes i win, sometimes i fail. Then i repent. Its part of life.

If there was no hell then there would be no purpose in serving god. Humanity would just rampantly sin and disobey just cuz it feels good and its fun, which is why most people sin anyway.
#4TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/3/2013 11:43:00 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


I loved this post.

TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#5Polish_CrusaderPosted 2/3/2013 11:45:09 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


I loved this post.

TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem


You have a lot to learn. You are terribly mistaken.
#6LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/3/2013 11:46:20 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #002
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Mario is for entertainment. God gives us free will and Hell and a sinful world for jollies is what I gathered from that.
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The above is both true and false.
#7TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/3/2013 11:47:52 PM
Polish_Crusader posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


I loved this post.

TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem


You have a lot to learn. You are terribly mistaken.


YOU have a lot to learn. YOU are terribly mistaken.
---
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#8LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/3/2013 11:52:37 PM(edited)
From: Polish_Crusader | #003
If there was no hell then there would be no purpose in serving god. Humanity would just rampantly sin and disobey just cuz it feels good and its fun, which is why most people sin anyway.

There is no "purpose" in serving God regardless of whether or not Hell exists. This is a decision between a stick for making people do what you want them to do, and simply making people do what you want them to do.

From: TheRealJiraiya | #004
TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem

Sound.
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The above is both true and false.
#9Far421Posted 2/3/2013 11:52:35 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


Try getting a star then falling in a pit. One can remove some challenge without robbing the endeavor of challenge entirely. Is not medicine a star of sorts?
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Pokemon White FC: 4341 2165 1292
#10OzymandiasIVPosted 2/4/2013 12:05:18 AM
From: LunarAmbience | Posted: 2/4/2013 2:31:07 AM | #001
That's typically the response you get when you ask why God doesn't prevent all the evil committed in the world. "We need free will!" We could have some kind of perfect utopia where people can only do right and beautiful. Where's the value in a world with free will if it only permits evil in the world along with the risk of eternal torture?


If they believe that that is how God created the world, it doesn't matter what they value or what their personal opinion is on free will. All that matters, to them, is that that is how God created the world.

From: OrangeWizard | Posted: 2/4/2013 2:37:30 AM | #002
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


So, we need to grow spiritually. Why? Saying we need to do something isn't good enough. You have to say why we need to do something. Eventually, it's going to come down to something along the lines of God needs to test us to make sure we're worthy or something like that. Whatever the end-goal is, it would not be outside of God's power to just create us in the way he wants us to be with that end-goal in mind. He could just give it to us and all would be well. And if you try to say that we would be missing something by just being given it by God, then you're putting a limit on your omnipotent God.
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Sucking at something is the first step to becoming sort of good at something.