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Never understood why Christians value free will over safety from threat of Hell.

#11LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 1:11:41 AM
From: OzymandiasIV | #010
If they believe that that is how God created the world, it doesn't matter what they value or what their personal opinion is on free will. All that matters, to them, is that that is how God created the world.

That's fine, but the ones who respond with this free will spiel have placed themselves in a delicate position. I simply wish to know why God didn't make us robots and instead chose to make us who we are and demand that we act as robots. I'd like to know why this process is worth each tragedy of an individual being sent to Hell when the same end can be achieved instantly without such loss.
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The above is both true and false.
#12C_MatPosted 2/4/2013 5:06:15 PM(edited)
TheRealJiraiya posted...
Polish_Crusader posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


I loved this post.

TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem


You have a lot to learn. You are terribly mistaken.


YOU have a lot to learn. YOU are terribly mistaken.


NO YOU have a lot to learn, NO YOU are terribly mistaken!! !! !!

JK. But seriously though, if you don't believe in hell, you can't fully understand the sacrifice of Jesus (assuming you are a Christian; if you said that because you're not a Christian, never mind).
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk
#13JonWood007Posted 2/4/2013 5:26:48 PM
Free will means little when you're punished with eternal torment for using it.
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#14OrangeWizardPosted 2/4/2013 5:55:26 PM
My post was taken from http://www.mspaintadventures.com/ If you liked that, then follow that webcomic for more.
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"Let's make this quick, I'm double-parked." - Two-face
#15TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/4/2013 6:09:43 PM
C_Mat posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
Polish_Crusader posted...
TheRealJiraiya posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
It's like when Mario gets the star.
You know how Mario gets the star?
So for a while he becomes flashy and hyperactive and nothing's challenging anymore.
He just starts barreling over mushrooms and leaping over pits as fast as he can, then gets to the end and jumps on the flagpole and that's it. Mario "wins".
But the point is, he didn't really win. That magic star was actually devastating to his development as a human being.
Because he skipped over many critical trials on his spiritual journey.
Mario NEEDS to stomp on all those mushrooms. He NEEDS to bonk those bricks with his head, for the sake of his personal growth.
By using the star, he is denying himself many powerful moments of catharsis.


I loved this post.

TC, I dont believe anyone will undergo eternal torture. That solves that problem


You have a lot to learn. You are terribly mistaken.


YOU have a lot to learn. YOU are terribly mistaken.


NO YOU have a lot to learn, NO YOU are terribly mistaken!! !! !!

JK. But seriously though, if you don't believe in hell, you can't fully understand the sacrifice of Jesus (assuming you are a Christian; if you said that because you're not a Christian, never mind).


How so? I am a Christian
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#16OrangeWizardPosted 2/4/2013 6:13:02 PM
I am also a Christian, and I also don't believe in hell, and I also don't see what C_mat is saying.

Also:

From: LunarAmbience | #006
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Mario is for entertainment.


Yes he is. What is your point?
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"Let's make this quick, I'm double-parked." - Two-face
#17cyclonekrusePosted 2/4/2013 7:25:31 PM
LunarAmbience posted...
That's fine, but the ones who respond with this free will spiel have placed themselves in a delicate position. I simply wish to know why God didn't make us robots and instead chose to make us who we are and demand that we act as robots. I'd like to know why this process is worth each tragedy of an individual being sent to Hell when the same end can be achieved instantly without such loss.

This assumes that the maximum good can be achieved using only robots. That seems unclear to me. If we're speaking of moral goodness or evil (which is what would make sense given the talk of free will) as opposed to natural evil, it may very well be necessary for there to be free will in order to achieve the maximum amount of good. After all, robots, not being moral agents, are incapable of doing moral good (or evil).
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Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#18LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 8:46:48 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #016
Yes he is. What is your point?

That which was followed by the sentence immediately following those which you quoted. Wow. You know, I don't think I'm going to be able to read your posts for a while. So, there's that.

From: cyclonekruse | #017
This assumes that the maximum good

Hold on, hold on. What the **** is "maximum good"?
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The above is both true and false.
#19C_MatPosted 2/4/2013 8:54:18 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
How so? I am a Christian


OrangeWizard posted...
I am also a Christian, and I also don't believe in hell, and I also don't see what C_mat is saying.


Not saying you aren't Christians, but if you think unbelievers aren't going to hell, you don't fully understand Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. He endured the torment of hell when He became sin for us, it wasn't just the torment of being nailed to wood. But even if you don't want to get into all that, the Bible is 100% clear about eternal damnation. Jesus talked about it more than anyone, using various illustrations like fire and darkness.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8)

Also remember this verse from Revelation:

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:11)

Not sure if you're a universalist or believe in annihilationism, but again, the Bible could not be more clear.
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#20cyclonekrusePosted 2/4/2013 9:02:01 PM
LunarAmbience posted...
Hold on, hold on. What the **** is "maximum good"?

The most "goodness" that can be achieved in any given situation. What is "good" is a bit of a thorny question. But, essentially, maximum good is the best case scenario possible for all parties.
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Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"