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Never understood why Christians value free will over safety from threat of Hell.

#21TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/4/2013 8:07:24 PM
Before I progress through your whole post, C_Mat, are you saying Jesus is currently in Hell?
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#22ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 8:17:34 PM
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#23LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 8:21:09 PM
From: cyclonekruse | #020
The most "goodness" that can be achieved in any given situation. What is "good" is a bit of a thorny question. But, essentially, maximum good is the best case scenario possible for all parties.

And we assess this to necessarily be a huge number of individuals being tortured for all eternity rather than not?
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The above is both true and false.
#24LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 8:22:24 PM
From: TheRealJiraiya | #021
Before I progress through your whole post, C_Mat, are you saying Jesus is currently in Hell?

It's generally agreed that Jesus spent the three days before he was resurrected in Hell.
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The above is both true and false.
#25TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/4/2013 8:30:52 PM
LunarAmbience posted...
From: TheRealJiraiya | #021
Before I progress through your whole post, C_Mat, are you saying Jesus is currently in Hell?

It's generally agreed that Jesus spent the three days before he was resurrected in Hell.


Whether this is true or not, it certainly is not eternal torment, and therefore not the full power of the torment of Hell
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#26C_MatPosted 2/4/2013 8:56:31 PM
TheRealJiraiya posted...
Whether this is true or not, it certainly is not eternal torment, and therefore not the full power of the torment of Hell


I would say that the suffering of Jesus on the cross, when he was estranged from God the Father, was a suffering so much higher than what you or I could ever experience in hell that it overshadows time. While Jesus' body was tormented on the cross, we have indications that His soul was experiencing the torment of hell*; particularly separation from the Father (generally agreed to be the worst aspect of hell, once you get past all that fire and brimstone stuff). And as hell is something outside of time (and I'm not even going to begin to try to understand what exactly that means, but I can relate the concept), the length of "earth time" that Jesus spent in hell is made irrelevant.

*one of these is that Jesus said He thirsts. A very significant quote, because even though He was likely physically thirsty, why would someone use their last breaths just to say "I'm thirsty" when you have a crown of thorns and nails in your body? However, we know that God is the source of "living water," which Jesus is deprived of right now. Actually, in our only parable describing hell, the first thing the man in hell mentions is that he'd like just a drop of water.

Jesus suffered infinitely more than any human soul in eternal hell, yet he looks at us and says, "It was worth it." What could make us feel more loved and valued than that? Again, not saying you aren't a Christian, but I think any Christian who doesn't understand hell hasn't come into the whole understanding of Jesus' sacrifice.
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#27cyclonekrusePosted 2/4/2013 9:32:47 PM
From: LunarAmbience | #023
From: cyclonekruse | #020
The most "goodness" that can be achieved in any given situation. What is "good" is a bit of a thorny question. But, essentially, maximum good is the best case scenario possible for all parties.

And we assess this to necessarily be a huge number of individuals being tortured for all eternity rather than not?

No, we assess it to be what we assess it to be. And unfortunately we have very little information from which to draw upon. We're mostly left with conjecture.

But my main point was that free will may very well be necessary to achieve the best possible scenario. And that having free will, even if it carries with it the possibility of evil, might be better than being automatons.
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#28LunarAmbience(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 10:09:40 PM
From: cyclonekruse | #027
No, we assess it to be what we assess it to be. And unfortunately we have very little information from which to draw upon. We're mostly left with conjecture.

But my main point was that free will may very well be necessary to achieve the best possible scenario. And that having free will, even if it carries with it the possibility of evil, might be better than being automatons.


I'd like to emphasize: even if it carries with it the possibility of people being tortured for all eternity

I won't be celebrating the maximal amount of cash I could have in my wallet by implementing a pyramid scheme. Why should I celebrate that there is (or, emphasized, could very well possibly be, we're not sure) "maximal goodness" in the world thanks to free will when that means people are being tortured for all eternity? I'm sorry, I need more here.
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The above is both true and false.
#29OrangeWizardPosted 2/4/2013 10:14:49 PM
From: LunarAmbience | #018
That which was followed by the sentence immediately following those which you quoted.


What followed was "what [you] gathered from that".

That wasn't a point, that was "what you gathered from that".
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#30inferiorweaselPosted 2/5/2013 8:21:35 AM
Why should god prevent the evils of the world? Are they not commited by man?
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