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I don't understand Francis Collin's conversion.

#31UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 9:52:03 AM
Moorish_Idol posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
Moorish_Idol posted...
This is not only important but the very point of the topic. Dismissing "There's more too it because Collins is Smart." is silly, the reason it's perplexing is that Collins was an intelligent man and converted so stupidly and contradictorily. The very point is that there wasn't more to it.

There you go again, ignoring what we've been saying.

I don't know why you think you know everything about his conversion. Did he tell you personally?


Yes. I've heard him speak about it. It was seeing the beauty mountains that made him convert because God must have designed them.

Unlike the people calling me a liar and insulting me who have literally never heard of him.


Did he say that unequivocally the only factor contributing to his conversion was the mountain scenery? Or did he simply say that it was when he saw the mountains that he converted?

There's a big difference.


No he said the beauty of the mountains made him realize they had to have been created purposefully by God.
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#32Far421Posted 2/6/2013 9:58:18 AM
If I recall, the waterfall somehow split into three parts and that represented the trinity to him or some such nonsense.
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#33WhereDidItGoPosted 2/6/2013 10:31:46 AM
UnfairRepresent posted...
No he said the beauty of the mountains made him realize they had to have been created purposefully by God.


But that is a pretty common idea to someone who has already been grappling with the issue and unofficially reached a beginning belief in God. It isn't meant to be some form of proof or evidence that would sway someone that hasn't made the same intellectual journey, but instead is an event in which one realizes their perspective has changed, when all the new data they have slowly come to accept kicks in and they see for the first time through that new filter. That point is significant due to being the memorable turning point for them.

Funny that Lewis is mentioned as influencing Collins, because Lewis' turning point to accepting Christ came to my mind and was also similarly mundane, yet he describes that it isn't the emotional or even thoughtful ties to such a moment that persuade us, but instead is the moment we begin to see differently than we had before.

“I was driven to Whipsnade one sunny morning. When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did. Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought. Nor in great emotion. “Emotional” is perhaps the last word we can apply to some of the most important events. It was more like when a man, after a long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.”
- C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy
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"The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason." - G.K. Chesterton
#34GBALoserPosted 2/6/2013 10:45:51 AM
UnfairRepresent posted...

Yes. I've heard him speak about it. It was seeing the beauty mountains that made him convert because God must have designed them.

Unlike the people calling me a liar and insulting me who have literally never heard of him.


Um, 'kay.

First, you're giving us a very vague description of some guy's conversion that many of us have never heard of.

Second, you're calling one of the more level-headed posters on this board a liar for stating that it's an oversimplified anecdote you're presenting us.

Third, you're coming off as Generic Angstheist #45321 itching to prove your rationalist mettle, an approach that's barely tolerated by the rational atheists around here.

So, unless you have something of merit other than, "This guy's conversion was stupid," please show a lot more restraint in your attitude.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#35the_hedonistPosted 2/6/2013 12:24:41 PM
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#36almasbabyPosted 2/6/2013 1:34:57 PM
He says he had been struggling with his faith for some time before he surrendered to what had been stirring in him for awhile. It wasn't a sudden epiphany that came out of nowhere. The Cascade Mountains were just the catalyst that pushed him over the edge.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html
#37UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 3:29:24 PM
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
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#38GBALoserPosted 2/6/2013 4:42:41 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her


Explain how a scientist's conversion to Christianity is somehow less intelligent than a politician's deconversion from Christianity/Islam. Both had reasons for their choices that are legitimate to me.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#39WelshGamer82Posted 2/6/2013 5:11:10 PM
kozlo100 posted...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


Well. Aren't you just the coolest person who's ever lived?



It's almost... ahem... "inconceivable"... that someone could possibly be cooler.
#40UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 5:16:14 PM
GBALoser posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her


Explain how a scientist's conversion to Christianity is somehow less intelligent than a politician's deconversion from Christianity/Islam. Both had reasons for their choices that are legitimate to me.


You've already showed your hand by complaining that it's conversation from belief to non-belief. It's not about what to what it's about why.
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
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