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I don't understand Francis Collin's conversion.

#41GBALoserPosted 2/6/2013 5:20:17 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
GBALoser posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her


Explain how a scientist's conversion to Christianity is somehow less intelligent than a politician's deconversion from Christianity/Islam. Both had reasons for their choices that are legitimate to me.


You've already showed your hand by complaining that it's conversation from belief to non-belief. It's not about what to what it's about why.


That was implicit in my question. The "whys" on both of them make sense, and they're both conversion, albeit in inverse form. What makes one more intelligent than the other? You're saying Collins conversion was "stupid." What makes Sabuni's any less "stupid"?
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#42the_hedonistPosted 2/6/2013 5:23:36 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her


Okay...don't know of her, but maybe you can help out with that. What is it about the process of her conversion that makes it different than that of Francis Collins?
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#43the_hedonistPosted 2/6/2013 5:26:01 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
GBALoser posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
the_hedonist posted...
So can you give us an example of what an intelligent conversion would be like?


Nyamko Sabuni. It's hilarious that people try to justify excuses to hate her


Explain how a scientist's conversion to Christianity is somehow less intelligent than a politician's deconversion from Christianity/Islam. Both had reasons for their choices that are legitimate to me.


You've already showed your hand by complaining that it's conversation from belief to non-belief. It's not about what to what it's about why.


I didn't sense a complaint. All he did was request a comparison. What made her conversion more intelligent than his?
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"Knowing is the responsible human struggle to rely on clues to focus on a coherent pattern and submit to its reality." -Esther Meek
#44GBALoserPosted 2/6/2013 5:32:38 PM
Okay...don't know of her, but maybe you can help out with that. What is it about the process of her conversion that makes it different than that of Francis Collins?

Yeah, I had to look her up myself. She was Minister of Gender Equality in Sweden until recently, born to a Christian man and a Muslim woman, though she is non-religious/atheist. Spoke out against hijabs, honor killings, and female genital mutilation. Accused by some of being Islamophobic.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#45Moorish_IdolPosted 2/6/2013 6:45:25 PM
At this point, I'm pretty sure the TC is just looking for reassurance. We've explained countless times why Collins' conversion isn't implicitly "stupid" yet he essentially just replies: "No, I insist it was."
#46UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 6:55:27 PM
GBALoser posted...
Okay...don't know of her, but maybe you can help out with that. What is it about the process of her conversion that makes it different than that of Francis Collins?

Yeah, I had to look her up myself. She was Minister of Gender Equality in Sweden until recently, born to a Christian man and a Muslim woman, though she is non-religious/atheist. Spoke out against hijabs, honor killings, and female genital mutilation. Accused by some of being Islamophobic.


Accused of being Islamophobic for being against human rights violations. As I said, it's a bad joke.

But her reasons for conversion were intellectual and thought not. Not "Pretty mountains means a designer"
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#47GBALoserPosted 2/6/2013 7:10:18 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...

Accused of being Islamophobic for being against human rights violations. As I said, it's a bad joke.

But her reasons for conversion were intellectual and thought not. Not "Pretty mountains means a designer"


Oh. You're right. Collin's didn't think anything out about his conversion.

Except the parts where, you know, he DID:

As I began to ask a few questions of those people, I realized something very fundamental: I had made a decision to reject any faith view of the world without ever really knowing what it was that I had rejected. And that worried me. As a scientist, you're not supposed to make decisions without the data. It was pretty clear I hadn't done any data collecting here about what these faiths stood for.

....

So this wonderful minister gave me his own copy of Mere Christianity, Lewis's slim tome that outlines the arguments leading to his conclusion that God is not only a possibility, but a plausibility. That the rational man would be more likely, upon studying the facts, to conclude that choosing to believe is the appropriate choice, as opposed to choosing not to believe.

That was a concept I was really unprepared to hear. Until then, I don't think anyone had ever suggested to me that faith was a conclusion that one could arrive at on the basis of rational thought. I, and I suspect, many other scientists who've never really looked at the evidence, had kind of assumed that faith was something that you arrived at, either because it was drummed into your head when you were a little kid or by some emotional experience, or some sort of cultural pressure. The idea that you would arrive at faith because it made sense, because it was rational, because it was the most appropriate choice when presented with the data, that was a new concept. And yet, reading through the pages of Lewis's book, I came to that conclusion over the course of several very painful weeks.

I didn't want this conclusion. I was very happy with the idea that God didn't exist, and had no interest in me. And yet at the same time, I could not turn away. I had to keep turning those pages. I had to keep trying to understand this. I had to see where it led. But I still didn't want to make that decision to believe.



So, again, tell me. What makes Collin's conversion less intelligent than Sabuni's? Collin went with a logical analysis based upon philosophical considerations that caused him to reconsider his former beliefs, as did Sabuni. That he fully came to terms following an inspirational event is hardly enough to say his conversion is "stupid."
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#48DrAlbertBanduraPosted 2/6/2013 7:10:50 PM
I don't understand ANY conversions to Christianity. But whateva.
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#49DeadPresidents2Posted 2/6/2013 7:17:30 PM
TC....Just out of curiosity, what is the end goal of this topic?

Your initial assertion was that you didn't "understand" the conversion, but when several people on the board attempted to elucidate it to you, you batted it away and insisted something else.

What do you want people to say, if not to explain? People have tried to tell you that there was more to it than "seeing mountains", but if you're just going to reject everything that they're saying, when what was the point of making this topic? Was it to simply state what you believed it to be, under the guise of a question?
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#50Julian_CaesarPosted 2/6/2013 7:54:00 PM
From: UnfairRepresent | #017
I never called anyone an idiot.

What is it with you people?

Geez CE is better than this.


Not bad, not bad. Have you been taking lessons from OW? Although on review of your karma level, I'm inclined to think that a Scooby-Doo unmasking is in order here...
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