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I don't understand Francis Collin's conversion.

#81GBALoserPosted 2/7/2013 6:33:11 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...

I always laugh when people say "You're a troll, and a real bad one because none of us are annoyed!"

Well of course you're not annoyed because nobody is trolling. I just made an interesting topic and you're not adding anything to it other than Insulting me.

Why not actually defend the logic of his conversion or leave the topic?


"Interesting" to say the least. Starts with you calling a scientist's conversion "stupid" by completely misquoting the man, continues with you insulting regular posters as "liars" and "hypocrites," add in the random politician whose deconversion was more "intelligent" without any explanation as to why, then comes full circle again with you responding to everyone else's analysis as "Well, his conversion is still stupid."

Also, I'm not going to defend his logic as he gave the logical path in the parts you chose to omit.

1) Realized that objecting to religion without fully understanding it went against his scientific code of data collection
2) Studied the works of other professors of in the religion field (in this case, C.S. Lewis)
3) Tried to reconcile his knew knowledge with his old knowledge and found he had to abandon some of his old beliefs.

The mountain scene was just the emotional/spiritual trigger that completed his conversion.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#82UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 6:36:54 PM
Moorish_Idol posted...
The first 50 posts at least.


See this is just being childish and saying nothing. You haven;t contributed anything.


"Interesting" to say the least. Starts with you calling a scientist's conversion "stupid" by completely misquoting the man, continues with you insulting regular posters as "liars" and "hypocrites," add in the random politician whose deconversion was more "intelligent" without any explanation as to why, then comes full circle again with you responding to everyone else's analysis as "Well, his conversion is still stupid."


I don't care how active someone is, if they're lying then they;re liars.

Also, I'm not going to defend his logic as he gave the logical path in the parts you chose to omit.

1) Realized that objecting to religion without fully understanding it went against his scientific code of data collection
2) Studied the works of other professors of in the religion field (in this case, C.S. Lewis)
3) Tried to reconcile his knew knowledge with his old knowledge and found he had to abandon some of his old beliefs.


I don't see how "he read a book" is relevant. The Book didn't make him convert and he never quoted anything or any argument or information from the book. The mountains made him convert. Saying "A book made him think about God, and then he saw mountains which made him believe in God" doesn't change " he saw mountains which made him believe in God"

The mountain scene was just the emotional/spiritual trigger that completed his conversion.


No the mountain caused the conversion. You're just being obtuse with semantics.
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
http://i.imgur.com/45yVrRr.jpg
#83Moorish_IdolPosted 2/7/2013 6:42:26 PM
If you truly read the first 50 posts and are still wondering why we say you're oversimplifying things, then it's a comprehension issue you're struggling with. Is there a point we could be more clear on to help you understand?
#84UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 6:43:59 PM
Moorish_Idol posted...
If you truly read the first 50 posts and are still wondering why we say you're oversimplifying things, then it's a comprehension issue you're struggling with. Is there a point we could be more clear on to help you understand?


No I'm not wondering why people were lying, I think they're just wrong. And some of you intentionally.

Anything else you think I didn't read?
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
http://i.imgur.com/45yVrRr.jpg
#85Moorish_IdolPosted 2/7/2013 6:50:16 PM
Honestly I think you're just trolling now. We explained you weren't considering the topic thoroughly, and you got upset and decided to save face by now playing the ol' "I was trolling all along!" card.
#86UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 6:55:00 PM
Moorish_Idol posted...
Honestly I think you're just trolling now. We explained you weren't considering the topic thoroughly, and you got upset and decided to save face by now playing the ol' "I was trolling all along!" card.


I repeatedly ask you to tell me what I am avoiding, and you repeatedly fail to deliver anything of substance and insult me.

If you're proud of that and consider me a troll, then I don't want to meet anyone you'd consider a friend.
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
http://i.imgur.com/45yVrRr.jpg
#87GBALoserPosted 2/7/2013 6:57:27 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...

See this is just being childish and saying nothing. You haven;t contributed anything.


And you have...how?


I don't care how active someone is, if they're lying then they;re liars.


And no one here has lied at all. Except maybe you, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.


I don't see how "he read a book" is relevant. The Book didn't make him convert and he never quoted anything or any argument or information from the book. The mountains made him convert. Saying "A book made him think about God, and then he saw mountains which made him believe in God" doesn't change " he saw mountains which made him believe in God"


A book made him question severely his belief structure, enough that the only reason he resisted conversion was he didn't fully feel an intellectual argument was enough.

I don't believe intellectual argument alone will push someone across that gap, because we are not talking about something which can be measured in the same way that science measures the natural world, and then you decide what is natural truth. This is supernatural truth. And in that regard, the spirit enters into this, not just the mind.

I struggled with that for many months, really resisting this decision, going forward, going backward. Finally, after about a year, I was on a trip to the northwest, and on a beautiful afternoon hiking in the Cascade Mountains, where the remarkable beauty of the creation around me was so overwhelming, I felt, "I cannot resist this another moment. This is something I have really longed for all my life without realizing it, and now I've got the chance to say yes."



No the mountain caused the conversion. You're just being obtuse with semantics.


I turned the corner and saw in front of me this frozen waterfall, a couple of hundred feet high. Actually, a waterfall that had three parts to it also the symbolic three in one. At that moment, I felt my resistance leave me. And it was a great sense of relief. The next morning, in the dewy grass in the shadow of the Cascades, I fell on my knees and accepted this truth that God is God, that Christ is his son and that I am giving my life to that belief.

The last part of his intellectual resistance to conversion left upon seeing the waterfall. It did not cause the conversion, it finalized the conversion. If it happened to have been a squirrel he was looking at, it's the same thing; he came to full realization that he could no longer accept his former truths. An emotional catalyst completed what he had already accepted intellectually.
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#88UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 7:02:53 PM


And no one here has lied at all. Except maybe you, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.


kozlo100, Julian_Cesar and a couple of others.

You now as well.


A book made him question severely his belief structure, enough that the only reason he resisted conversion was he didn't fully feel an intellectual argument was enough.

I don't believe intellectual argument alone will push someone across that gap, because we are not talking about something which can be measured in the same way that science measures the natural world, and then you decide what is natural truth. This is supernatural truth. And in that regard, the spirit enters into this, not just the mind.

I struggled with that for many months, really resisting this decision, going forward, going backward. Finally, after about a year, I was on a trip to the northwest, and on a beautiful afternoon hiking in the Cascade Mountains, where the remarkable beauty of the creation around me was so overwhelming, I felt, "I cannot resist this another moment. This is something I have really longed for all my life without realizing it, and now I've got the >chance to say yes.


This is exactly my point. He saw the mountains and with no logic or thought or reason behind it said "Well that proves God." saying "it can't be measured with reason!" is exactly why I am saying I don't understand it.

If someone picked up a rock and said "This rock has made me realize that the aliens are coming and will kill us all. To stop them we need to turn off all the lights and focus our mental energy to make the sun fire out a blast pulse that will obliterate the deathships.... Oh by the way this is a supernatural leap caused by this rock and It can't be observed rationally." You would not only laugh at him but most likely get him immediate medical attention and certainly would not accept his rambling.

Other than the popularity of Christian faith, I don't see how his mountain example is any different. And I don't see how Collins in any different to the man in my example, who we shall name Nathaniel.
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
http://i.imgur.com/45yVrRr.jpg
#89GBALoserPosted 2/7/2013 7:19:24 PM
This is exactly my point. He saw the mountains and with no logic or thought or reason behind it said "Well that proves God." saying "it can't be measured with reason!" is exactly why I am saying I don't understand it.


Then apparently you don't understand conversions/deconversions of any type. They are always one part rational, one part emotional. Collin's came down the rational path of research that culminated in conversion with the emotional catalyst of the Cascade Mountains.

Which, again, what makes it any less intelligent than Nyamko Sabuni's deconversion? I don't know the full details, but let me guess. Her father emigrated from Zaire to Sweden. She saw that women were treated far differently from the way she was taught they were to be treated. She studied this new country's moral beliefs,probably against the wishes of her father. Suddenly felt the full emotional impact when she saw images of female genital mutilation. She realized she could not keep with her Muslim/Christian faith and deconverted.

Again, noticed a morality different from her own, researched the opposing morality, waffled for a while, then an emotional catalyst completes here deconversion.

HOW.....IS....IT.....DIFFERENT?
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Every once in a while I realize the human race may be worth saving. Of course, then I come back here, but still, those are good moments. -Readyman
#90UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/7/2013 7:28:36 PM
GBALoser posted...
This is exactly my point. He saw the mountains and with no logic or thought or reason behind it said "Well that proves God." saying "it can't be measured with reason!" is exactly why I am saying I don't understand it.


Then apparently you don't understand conversions/deconversions of any type. They are always one part rational, one part emotional. Collin's came down the rational path of research that culminated in conversion with the emotional catalyst of the Cascade Mountains.

Which, again, what makes it any less intelligent than Nyamko Sabuni's deconversion? I don't know the full details, but let me guess. Her father emigrated from Zaire to Sweden. She saw that women were treated far differently from the way she was taught they were to be treated. She studied this new country's moral beliefs,probably against the wishes of her father. Suddenly felt the full emotional impact when she saw images of female genital mutilation. She realized she could not keep with her Muslim/Christian faith and deconverted.

Again, noticed a morality different from her own, researched the opposing morality, waffled for a while, then an emotional catalyst completes here deconversion.

HOW.....IS....IT.....DIFFERENT?


There was no part rational of this. It was all emotion. And rather silly emotion
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.
http://i.imgur.com/45yVrRr.jpg