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Looking at common apologetics about Hell.

#131OrangeWizardPosted 2/14/2013 5:47:43 PM
From: Thuggernautz | #129
OrangeWizard posted...

You know the difference between God and the ghost who never lies?

We're all assuming God, for the sake of argument.
We're not all assuming that the ghost who never lies exists.


Sorry, the ghost who never lies doesn't need your assumption to be true.


Correct.
But it does if you want me to believe in it, and take it seriously.

So I don't know why you persist with this argument if you recognize that nobody takes it seriously.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#132DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 6:51:17 PM(edited)
From: countzander | #124
"You had faith. It was your decision to take the easier road instead."

this is just offensive, presumptuous, irrelevant, and a dodge of what I said all mixed into one horrible line that isn't even worth being called a counterpoint.

"The only defense I've seen has been "That doesn't seem right." Unless there's an objective moral standard, the only defense you can mount is one based upon moral relativism."

Yeah, a lot of the stuff in the Bible is demonstrably inefficient in keeping communities together, and is shown as immoral by nearly every philosophical set of ethics. One of my favorites is women being stoned if they don't cry out loud enough while being raped. the point of this was because women were commiting adultery then pretending it was rape. And when a woman is legitimately rape but is too worried about her life/drugged/traumatized/in general just scared/gagged, she gets stoned. the very ethical point of this law can literally be shown to create problems.


"No, I'm just saying we have to reserve our judgment."

I will make my judgment on the evidence available. If Jesus is not even going to show up, how the hell can I trust him on his word, especially when a lot of it is just wicked (the hatred of gays, again the stoning of rape victims). Of course, I could be wrong, I guess, but I will happily make the statement right now that burning someone forever in liquid sulfur is not moral. By all means, go pray to God for wisdom (it says he will generously give it to you in James 1) and once the "Spirit" gives you the knowledge why Hell is moral, by all means get back to me.

I mean, seriously, I don't mind hearing someone's explanation. I'm all for ask questions now, bite later. But in 2000 years all God's done is given us a text in which he treats us like insignificant a******es that are horrible, arrogant people for even asking. (really, I feel humiliated to be the subject of the metaphor in romans 9. Oh well, such is the fate of a defective God glorifier such as I or thuggernautz, right?). I mean, all we want is for God to communicate with us and explain these things to us. y'know, the things you do in a relationship. (relationship with your children or bride, whichever one you feel like picking from the Bible).

hey guys, I just molested an unwilling woman because she didn't yell then stoned her. i then took another woman and cut her apart with a knife while she was still alive. wait for my explanation before you pass judgment. keep waiting. keep waiting. its very arrogant of you to think of me as immoral when you don't all I know. I guess I'll explain to you someday... maybe milleniums from now. maybe never. but until you can prove it is immoral, dont treat me immoral, you arrogant morality assumer.

and reallly, if we 'have' to reserve our judgment, then how come you're calling him good instead of reserving your judgment?
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#133DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 6:31:27 PM
"God said he'll supply the needs of those who diligently follow him. Maybe Africans and others aren't doing it right. Besides, temporal discomfort is irrelevant if you believe in heaven."

definitely. **** yeah america, the most Jesus filled nation in the world! the Bible doesn't say "Hey, I'll feed you but I'll starve you sometimes to see if you love me" it says "I'll feed you". while this life is negligible compared to Heaven, that doesn't change the fact God guaranteed sustainment in this life. Also, you are really vein and really deluded if you're just going to pull "no true scotsmen" on all the starvers. You don't think a single one of them was saved? what do you think of the five thousand fed by bread in the Gospel? Jesus has no problem feeding the masses using instant magic back then.


"The parent analogy is meant to show that we're incapable of comprehending God's actions, not that God's method of discipline is justified. The point is that no one knows enough about anything to conclusively condemn God's actions. At the best, you can say, "I believe God is just/unjust because [insert subjective reason here].""

Well, if you go actually, yknow, research, I doubt you'll find many times in which a humanist was issuing punishment because someone 'rebelled' against them and deserved torture eternity.

"I might be wrong about Christianity but I might not be."

So if you might be wrong then why do you continue to act like it's right? Shouldn't you be agnostic like the rest of us? Oh wait, intellectual dishonesty and all that.

"I'm siding with Pascal on this one. "If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. "

I see no signs, hence I'm in denial.

"If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. "


As would I

"But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a god sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity.""

What did he see too much of to deny God? But yeah, you would think a God so madly in love with us would be a tad bit more communicative. I mean, he came down here once and continuously directly



"Finally, for your last paragraph--I'll just fix it by replacing "evidence" with "evidence I find convincing."

you could have also just said proof. in fact evidence to eliminate most doubt would be sufficient.
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#134DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 6:49:59 PM
"The second part of your criticism is irrelevant. God's omniscience does not (and cannot) be proven since God, by definition, is omniscient. (Can you prove that a triangle has three sides?) And Russel's teapots are also irrelevant. They're weak analogies and are too dissimilar to God to make an adequate comparison."

are you actually going to demonstrate the weakness of the teapot analogy, or just call it dumb and give it no counter point?

Also, I can prove the triangle has 3 sides by looking at how many sides it has.1... 2... 3.... derp. I'm sorry to be rude but these are some of the worst arguments I've ever seen. Also, if I did see a triangle with 3 sides, I wouldn't ****ing go "well there could be a fourth side that no human can observe and its actually a square!!!' You have the burden of proof. YOU have to demonstrate the morality. again, by your logic zero, zero,zero is verifiable including literally any reason/evidence/proof you could possibly ever give me to believe in the Biblical God, so I suggest you quit shooting yourself in the foot with this asinine, demonstrably flawed argument. In the mean time, null hypothesis, gg.

"No, it can't be applied to my position. In order to have committed the argument from ignorance, I would have needed to have asserted something like "You're wrong because you haven't demonstrated you're right.""

nope, actually you would have to go "well there could be another factor you don't know/you can't disprove it", hence you'd be appealing to the possibility that something we don't know could be true. hey yeah, you did. look up the argument from ignorance before you make up any more ****.

"And there's the fact that God, by definition, is good. If God exists, then everything he does is automatically good, regardless of what you think. But that makes for a boring argument."

dont know how youre automatically getting "good" out of "the sentient being that created the universe". (had to stray away from the usual "omnistuff" definition, since as sivirio said, the Biblical God is not omnipotent.) but I've already demonstrated that knowing good does not necessitate being good. Clearly I know murdering is wrong. I've never murdered though (unlike God). Likewise, I know that, Biblically, lusting is wrong. But does my knowledge of this mean I have not lusted? (before you respond, please keep in mind that I have yet to assert whether or not I actually have lusted before). regardless, I have already demonstrated the dichotomy of what we conclude about the God claim of the Bible. Yet to receive a counterpoint, its somewhere in the first fifty posts. Also, someone make the Ori comparison. Idk enough about them to argue it, haha. (cough wheres gohan when you need him cough)
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#135DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 7:02:55 PM
"
And there are no definite contradictions in the Bible. The alleged contradictions are concoctions of strict literalism, lazy reading, and theological ignorance, with a little narrow mindedness sprinkled in. Seriously, I challenge you to bring one up, and I'll adequately show why it's not necessarily a contradiction. "

I don't know if I should respect the confidence, or laugh at the completely unscientific, intellectually biased, strawmanming, denial you could ever find a contradiction. (speaking of contradictions, you just kinda contradicted your whole 'there could always be something you don't know" spill. Hey, there could be a contradiction you don't know about. You don't know the intent of every word of every one of the authors. If this is an appeal to ignorance then so is the morality bs. Alas, i'll actually provide EVIDENCE for my claims. Also, bolded just made me lol. "Hey if pretend all of this is a metaphor for God's love and a trial then it all makes sense"



Anyways, game on (yes I did, shamedly, google 'bible contradictions' and commence a copypasta fest. Im not doing the crap contradictions that I agree are a huge stretch, but I have never seen a counterpoint for any of these that cant be hit back with its own counter. ive had too much whiskey to actually try, lulz)

"GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

and incase you tell one of them was intended as a metaphor, or was showing Yahweh in the then traditional creation stories of the paganists, I want Scripture supporting that, otherwise it's an evidenceless assumption, thus null hypothesis.

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#136DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 7:09:15 PM
ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

n two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)



"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.



Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.html
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#137DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/14/2013 7:09:53 PM
cant believe i posted all of that O_O
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
#138OrangeWizardPosted 2/14/2013 7:31:19 PM
Yeah, I can't believe you googled up all those contradictions and pasted them
So much effort spent.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#139SilviiroPosted 2/14/2013 7:43:57 PM
I still have a plethora of verses to pick from. What about moving mountains? the healings is a big one. Jesus was ALL about faith-based healing and constantly rewarded confidence in the nt. Maybe if he actually showed up we could have faith.

The moving mountains was again told to the same 12 men. (Interestingly enough, they were told they could do it with the faith of a mustard seed, that is hardly any faith at all.) The healings performed by him were performed by him. You cannot generalize "this guy did this so more people can too." People can't run like ultramarathon man just because ultramarathon man can.

I think it also shows how little credibility I can give the Bible. You would think if belief of what it says is dependent on where I spend eternity, God could at the very least make sure we all get the right Scripture.

That's just the "other religions exist therefore all religions are wrong" argument. I've never found that one compelling.

I operate on the axiom of what I can observe in reality. Can you come to agreement on that? My purpose with my axioms is clearly explained in a prior post.

Even your observation of reality is based on axioms such as the axiom that you are not a brain in a vat or a man metaphorically chained to a wall in a cave perceiving only shadows without understanding that the shadows have a source. Everything must have axioms.

How are you getting that out of those texts? right now, you are saying thats what you get. But right now my interpretation is more valid because I have a demonstrably means of how I got it (taking it literally)

I am taking it literally as "those" referring to specific people instead of a broad generalization. In fact, the word here for "those," "tois," is often translated into English as "the." So here's a random Googled page because I'm too lazy to do anything in depth on this verse http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/who_are_the_believers_followed_by_signs.htm

How is it poetic?

Have you read the 13th chapter of 1st Corinthians? It's beautiful. If he went into detail on every little point do you think it would be up there with the 23rd Psalm in recognition by the average person?

Yeah, I can't criticize the Bible. thats unfair, I can only praise it. comparing it to reality? no thats bs,obviously.

You are free to criticize it in any argument in which it is not taken as an axiom. If it merely a deduction from other axioms it is open to criticism.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#140countzanderPosted 2/14/2013 8:47:22 PM
this is just offensive, presumptuous, irrelevant, and a dodge of what I said all mixed into one horrible line that isn't even worth being called a counterpoint.


It's a very good counterpoint. You ask how good discipline would be to someone without faith. It's no good at all. It is now nearly impossible for you to receive any revelation from God, provided he exists.

Yeah, a lot of the stuff in the Bible is demonstrably inefficient in keeping communities together, and is shown as immoral by nearly every philosophical set of ethics. One of my favorites is women being stoned if they don't cry out loud enough while being raped. the point of this was because women were committing adultery then pretending it was rape. And when a woman is legitimately rape but is too worried about her life/drugged/traumatized/in general just scared/gagged, she gets stoned. the very ethical point of this law can literally be shown to create problems I will make my judgment on the evidence available. If Jesus is not even going to show up, how the hell can I trust him on his word, especially when a lot of it is just wicked (the hatred of gays, again the stoning of rape victims). Of course, I could be wrong, I guess, but I will happily make the statement right now that burning someone forever in liquid sulfur is not moral. By all means, go pray to God for wisdom (it says he will generously give it to you in James 1) and once the "Spirit" gives you the knowledge why Hell is moral, by all means get back to me.

I mean, seriously, I don't mind hearing someone's explanation. I'm all for ask questions now, bite later. But in 2000 years all God's done is given us a text in which he treats us like insignificant a******es that are horrible, arrogant people for even asking. (really, I feel humiliated to be the subject of the metaphor in romans 9. Oh well, such is the fate of a defective God glorifier such as I or thuggernautz, right?). I mean, all we want is for God to communicate with us and explain these things to us. y'know, the things you do in a relationship. (relationship with your children or bride, whichever one you feel like picking from the Bible).

hey guys, I just molested an unwilling woman because she didn't yell then stoned her. i then took another woman and cut her apart with a knife while she was still alive. wait for my explanation before you pass judgment. keep waiting. keep waiting. its very arrogant of you to think of me as immoral when you don't all I know. I guess I'll explain to you someday... maybe milleniums from now. maybe never. but until you can prove it is immoral, dont treat me immoral, you arrogant morality assumer.


Your subjective repulsion is irrelevant, as are the similar sentiments of philosophers. If God exists, he doesn't care what you guys think. Unless an objective morality can be demonstrated, these attacks and accusations are just opinion.

and reallly, if we 'have' to reserve our judgment, then how come you're calling him good instead of reserving your judgment?


I am reserving my judgment... The Bible defines God as being benevolent. Until I'm shown an objective standard or morality, there is insufficient evidence to reject the definition. I'm not making any judgments of my own...yet.
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