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Looking at common apologetics about Hell.

#31DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 7:15:43 PM
From: Silviiro | #030
I would have to disagree on the system's base. I'm not assuming the Bible, I'm assuming God wrote it in order to criticize the theology of Hell. at that point, I'm believing God said he's as described in the Bible, not believing God is as described in the Bible.

Unless the meaning of this is beyond my math-worn brain, that seems to be describing a trickster god.


exactly, and I'm demonstrating how can logically assert that without being in contradiction.

It is demonstrable from the given axioms. You are free to disagree with the axioms, but Hell being necessary is a logical conclusion from the intersection of the statements: "There exists God as described in the Bible" and "There exists a Hell."



My statement wasn't your statement. My statement is, "there exists a God who wrote the Bible". From there I can say there exists a God who claims perfection, omnibenevolence, etc. And from that same initial statement I can say there exists a God who claims a Hell as described Biblically. the three possibilities (correct me if theres more), 1) God does not exist. 2) God is a trickster and 3) Everything God has said is true, there is an Occam's razor in the form of a hole in logic in my assessment of the morality of Hell.
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#32SirThinkALotPosted 2/4/2013 7:20:41 PM(edited)
DarkContractor posted...
He only has a purpose for the existenceless bound Babylonians he created because of the existenceless bound Isrealites he created. And the ultimatum of it all is to just trust anything God does is again a priori perfect good, which clearly, as an atheist, I don't trust him on that. I would think I would trust God if he did reveal himself, I might mention. But without him revealing himself, I have zero motivation to trust God. It's all silly anyways. the Babylonians God given purpose was to sin? So he created something bound for inexistence that will suffer along the way (all ignoring that he has to be burned to nothing to cease to exist), all while giving him a purpose to sin, literally supposed to be the unfulfilling neverlasting pleasure of the world. I will admit you made a good point though.


I'm not saying you should trust God, I was simply summarizing what God told Habakkuk, which I felt was relevant because of my previous point about God being able to use non-believers for his own purposes.

To use a less 'dramatic' example: my parents are atheists, yet without them, I wouldnt exist to follow God.

I would also add that I think God HAS revealed himself in the person of Jesus, and particularly in his ressurection. Which is the primary reason I believe.
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#33SilviiroPosted 2/4/2013 7:24:26 PM
My statement wasn't your statement. My statement is, "there exists a God who wrote the Bible". From there I can say there exists a God who claims perfection, omnibenevolence, etc. And from that same initial statement I can say there exists a God who claims a Hell as described Biblically. the three possibilities (correct me if theres more), 1) God does not exist. 2) God is a trickster and 3) Everything God has said is true, there is an Occam's razor in the form of a hole in logic in my assessment of the morality of Hell.

Those are effectively the same statement and it only has room for two possibilities: it is true or false. To conclude that God is a trickster you have to be checking whether or not the Bible is true within one of your statements.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#34SilviiroPosted 2/4/2013 7:30:20 PM
Man, abstract algebra is making me all formal. I'm afraid of what I'm going to do when I start symbolic logic next month.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#35DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 7:35:30 PM(edited)
From: SirThinkALot | #032
DarkContractor posted...
He only has a purpose for the existenceless bound Babylonians he created because of the existenceless bound Isrealites he created. And the ultimatum of it all is to just trust anything God does is again a priori perfect good, which clearly, as an atheist, I don't trust him on that. I would think I would trust God if he did reveal himself, I might mention. But without him revealing himself, I have zero motivation to trust God. It's all silly anyways. the Babylonians God given purpose was to sin? So he created something bound for inexistence that will suffer along the way (all ignoring that he has to be burned to nothing to cease to exist), all while giving him a purpose to sin, literally supposed to be the unfulfilling neverlasting pleasure of the world. I will admit you made a good point though.


I'm not saying you should trust God, I was simply summarizing what God told Habakkuk, which I felt was relevant because of my previous point about God being able to use non-believers for his own purposes.

To use a less 'dramatic' example: my parents are atheists, yet without them, I wouldnt exist to follow God.

I would also add that I think God HAS revealed himself in the person of Jesus, and particularly in his ressurection. Which is the primary reason I believe.



And I'm analyzing what God told Habakkuk. I see there being more docile solutions than what God did.

Also, your soul could have been just reassigned to a different child's. He could have just easily given you Christian parents. From the point you're making, your Christian reality is becoming indistinguishable from my deterministic reality, the thing separating the two being anecdotal evidence from 2000 years ago. read John fourteen and fifteen. Whats preventing us from making impossible requests of God? A lack of faith? clearly obtainable since the Body of Christ did it numerous times in Acts, after Jesus had ascended. So in 2000 years no one has had enough faith since the time of Peter to ask God to reveal himself to everyone? it would also contradict that Phil. verse "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength". I see no Scripture to lead me to believe that having enough faith in God to ask for a clear example of divine intervention is excluded from 'all things'.
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#36DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 7:33:05 PM
From: Silviiro | #033
My statement wasn't your statement. My statement is, "there exists a God who wrote the Bible". From there I can say there exists a God who claims perfection, omnibenevolence, etc. And from that same initial statement I can say there exists a God who claims a Hell as described Biblically. the three possibilities (correct me if theres more), 1) God does not exist. 2) God is a trickster and 3) Everything God has said is true, there is an Occam's razor in the form of a hole in logic in my assessment of the morality of Hell.

Those are effectively the same statement and it only has room for two possibilities: it is true or false. To conclude that God is a trickster you have to be checking whether or not the Bible is true within one of your statements.



Point being? rest up and re-read my post, please.
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#37ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 7:39:29 PM
Hell is a choice. The arrogant individual chooses his destination by disregarding what he knows and by living a bad life.

"You aren't judged for what you don't know."
"Those who did good will rise to live. Those who did evil will rise to be condemned."
"The Gentiles are a law unto themselves when they do by nature those things required of the law."

Note also that throughout the Bible there's mention of God "erasing" someone's name from the book of life. To some, this would indicate that everyone's default state is salvation and that because of separation, humans will inevitably choose to sin and abandon God, which is why we became guilty of breaking the blood-oath. Which is why Jesus was necessary.

God sent Jesus precisely so he wouldn't have to send anyone to hell. After this, it's everyone's choice.
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#38fudrickPosted 2/4/2013 7:42:43 PM
Proudclad posted...
Hell is a choice. The arrogant individual chooses his destination by disregarding what he knows and by living a bad life.


You are a vile human being
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#39ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 7:43:40 PM
How am I a vile human being? Address what I said. Not what you think I said.
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#40DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 7:46:26 PM
then I suppose that all of are going to Heaven and none of us Hell, since none of us know Jesus came outside of anecdotal evidence? (which would contradict names being erased)
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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.