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Looking at common apologetics about Hell.

#61ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 9:37:16 PM
LunarAmbience posted...
Not that I don't appreciate the whole, "You chose to go to Hell, it's not God's fault for the Tree or the Serpent or for Satan or for Hell or for not absolving these at any time after they were created," but God kinda knew that giving individuals choice was going to lead to more bad decisions that the initial good ones if he'd deprived them of the choice of evil.

And we're not even talking about individuals with true free will. There is no such thing as true free will. I don't have the capacity to walk into a stranger's home and choose to smother their infant. A mentally ill person does.

And we're not even getting into the sheer dumbassery which is "choosing to believe" in God.


it sure seems like we're getting into the effort of trying to eliminate free will and omniscience despite the fact that they aren't mutually exclusive, though.

giving individuals choice will result in people choosing the wrong thing. god knew this. that doesn't mean god is responsible for any individual's choice. everyone chooses freely to do with what they know whatever they want. no one said anything about "choosing to believe in God", but rather "choosing what you'll do with what you know"

if you know that there's a defensible Bible out there, and if you constantly argue against it despite never having read it and despite relying on atheist propaganda via OT quote-mining on the internet, you're being dishonest and that's something you'd be held accountable for. primarily because you run your mouth against the Bible so damn often, to the point where you discourage other people
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#62ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 9:38:21 PM
DarkContractor posted...
From: Proudclad | #053
posting elsewhere does not mean that i am in a position to prepare a response for a topic on this board. CE is nothing compared to this board.

i'm saying that someone who chooses to live an evil life, or someone who rejects god, or someone who ignores something they know about god in favor of living a dark life, will be held accountable for these things. thankfully, i'm not the judge.

there are some principles that can be of use - god is merciful, god is just, god judges fairly, god desires all people to be with him, and god is the ultimate judge. i relieve myself of the responsibility of commenting on who specifically goes to hell. the scale isn't in my hand



then why are you speculatiing on who goes to Hell?


we know what conditions will lead to someone being judged/condemned. beyond this, i always maintain that i do not know the individual's heart or mind. only god does. the scales are in his hand. he judges everyone. i try to avoid judging anyone
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#63fudrickPosted 2/4/2013 9:41:07 PM
Proudclad posted...
we know what conditions will lead to someone being judged/condemned. beyond this, i always maintain that i do not know the individual's heart or mind. only god does. the scales are in his hand. he judges everyone. i try to avoid judging anyone


So wait, how was I wrong when I said the following?

fudrick posted...
you believe that any non-christian/unsaved person is an "arrogant individual" who "chooses his destination by disregarding what he knows and by living a bad life."

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#64LunarAmbiencePosted 2/4/2013 9:45:54 PM
From: Proudclad | #061
it sure seems like we're getting into the effort of trying to eliminate free will and omniscience despite the fact that they aren't mutually exclusive, though.

giving individuals choice will result in people choosing the wrong thing. god knew this. that doesn't mean god is responsible for any individual's choice. everyone chooses freely to do with what they know whatever they want. no one said anything about "choosing to believe in God", but rather "choosing what you'll do with what you know"

if you know that there's a defensible Bible out there, and if you constantly argue against it despite never having read it and despite relying on atheist propaganda via OT quote-mining on the internet, you're being dishonest and that's something you'd be held accountable for. primarily because you run your mouth against the Bible so damn often, to the point where you discourage other people

Don't get me started on omniscience. Regardless of omniscience, there's still a problem with true free will and there's still the problem of reasoning for implementation of free will if this move results in people damning themselves for all eternity.

And no, it isn't the fault of God that individuals make choices. But it is his fault for putting people in the position to make bad choices. Just as I'd blame a parent for giving their child a gun when that child shoots herself in the foot, I'd blame God for giving free will to individuals when he knows they will do evil with it. It's that simple.

People who believe in a defensible Bible are called "Christians."
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The above is both true and false.
#65ProudcladPosted 2/4/2013 9:50:09 PM
true free will? sorry, but that doesn't mean anything right now. neither does "omniscience". define your terms.

if free will results in some people choosing to damn themselves, that is their problem since they could've chosen to trust jesus or to do more with what they knew. why are people so entitled these days?

it isn't god's "fault" for putting people in a position to make bad choices. that's the most terrible argument i've ever heard. everyone is given a fair amount of time during which they make the most of what they know. everyone is judged fairly. people who believe in a defensible bible are christians, agnostic christians, or even agnostic atheists
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#66DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 2/4/2013 9:55:09 PM
From: Proudclad | #060
earth won't be around anymore, everything here perishes. narnia is not the bible but it has theological truth to it. the reason they won't change their mind is because they'll have rejected the truth when there was a chance to accept the truth.

i don't believe that annihilationism is correct. i imagine god isn't the one insisting that they stay alive. it'll probably be their regret keeping them alive. or their pride keeping them from admitting the truth. if we look at revelations, we'll see that people will continue to avoid confessing the truth for the longest time (until they confess it later on)

ultimately, the theology of hell takes a backseat to first affirming god's existence. hell's existence doesn't invalidate god's existence. it would merely make you upset with god. and as far as the middle east, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of impossible things taking place in the middle east. revelations, healings, etc.



whats the Scripture saying that they won't change their mind? your reasoning for them not changing their mind doesn't even make sense. thats like me saying if I made an error on a math problem, someone demonstrated to me why I was wrong but I insisted I was right, that I would never ever acknowledge I was wrong.

the inability to get past sins like pride would actually dismiss free will, if we're given an eternity to think about things you're saying not a single person will change their mind? thats near impossible. and again, statistically inevitable. All they gotta do is change their mind once, and then theyre in Heaven witnessing the glory of God. Again, they do confess it later on, my point exactly.

Whos making the Earth disappear? God. So blame to him for that one, again for not giving them the option in the first place. thats my point, why doesn't he get rid of them? You're literally saying someone who's been to Hell would rather sit in Hell in sin in fire forever than escape it. Even if they did, God could have just not brought them into existence in the first place, like I suggested, foregoing the needless suffering.

Also, theres anecdotal evidence of miracles in just about every religion ever. Why hasn't the Middle East get shaken up? Why hasn't a mass conversion occurred like in Acts? How different would a reformation of the Muslim theocracies be from the reformation from Constantines conversion? they'd both be near instant changes from persecuting Christians due to what was believed to be a blaspheme against false teachings/idols to, optimistically, adopting Christianity as the main religion.
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#67LunarAmbiencePosted 2/4/2013 10:00:57 PM
You believe a mentally ill person who kills their child and doesn't repent will go to Hell? Those are the terms. That's the kind of free will we're actually dealing with. The brain isn't a magic "do anything you want" machine. It's driven by chemistry and physiology.

"Chosen to trust Jesus"? How do you do that? How do you go to a sad movie and choose to find it sad and choose to cry?

It's not God's fault? It's not God's will? It's not something God could have foreseen?

Man, fascinating stuff.
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The above is both true and false.
#68fudrickPosted 2/4/2013 10:01:40 PM
fudrick posted...
Proudclad posted...
we know what conditions will lead to someone being judged/condemned. beyond this, i always maintain that i do not know the individual's heart or mind. only god does. the scales are in his hand. he judges everyone. i try to avoid judging anyone


So wait, how was I wrong when I said the following?

fudrick posted...
you believe that any non-christian/unsaved person is an "arrogant individual" who "chooses his destination by disregarding what he knows and by living a bad life."

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#69SirThinkALotPosted 2/4/2013 11:20:40 PM
DarkContractor posted...
Also, your soul could have been just reassigned to a different child's.He could have just easily given you Christian parents.


I dont think souls are 'assigned' to a body. Being born to different parents would make me a different person. And not just in the metaphorical sense of 'I would act differently.'

read John fourteen and fifteen. Whats preventing us from making impossible requests of God?


Nothing. But theres also nothing mandating God honor said requests.

clearly obtainable since the Body of Christ did it numerous times in Acts, after Jesus had ascended. So in 2000 years no one has had enough faith since the time of Peter to ask God to reveal himself to everyone?


Or, more likely, God hasnt called any apostles or prophets since then. Seeing as those are the typical miracle workers of the Bible....

it would also contradict that Phil. verse "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength". I see no Scripture to lead me to believe that having enough faith in God to ask for a clear example of divine intervention is excluded from 'all things'.


what about the fact that the immidate context makes it clear that Paul is talking about continuing his work while under house arrest?
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#70SCAMaz0nPosted 2/5/2013 2:32:12 AM
DarkContractor posted...

I like how you're only response to my whole bit about that priori was laughter. thats called an appeal to emotion. If God is incapable of being with sin, btw, then he's not omnipotent.

Makes you wonder how long Lucifer was in Heaven until God got wind of him getting together the angels of Heaven to rebel?
And since Heaven is God's creation and he knows everything it makes me believe he turned his blind eye to Lucifer's sin for a certain amount of time.
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