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RE: Suibom

#31AynRandySavagePosted 2/5/2013 10:18:01 PM
C_Mat posted...


I'm not trying to have a meaningful discussion with you about abortion. I can't think of a single thing that would change your mind on abortion if we don't even agree on the value of human life.



Then why not discuss the value of human life?
#32JonWood007Posted 2/5/2013 10:19:35 PM
Eh, I see it as a legitimate point of debate tbqh. Just not once that phases me. Remember, I was once pro life, so I'm very familiar with what abortion is and it's not like it's the first time I've seen abortion photos/videos like that before. I'm honestly more annoyed that he closed the topic than showed me that video.
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#33Faust_8Posted 2/5/2013 10:48:50 PM
C_Mat posted...
Someone is only alive because a 14-year-old decided to give him up for adoption instead of ending his life. It is honestly disturbing, beyond what I can even describe with words, that saying that will register in your brain as "appeal to emotion."


My main issue with his anecdote is he said that giving up a baby to adoption is "responsible."

I'm sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around that one. How is that inherently a responsible action? Looking at it one way, his mom made a mistake and passed the buck to someone else.

Wouldn't it have been more responsible to, you know, take responsibility and care for the child you're bringing in to the world instead of forcing the system to do it for you? Or wouldn't have been more responsible to, you know, not get knocked up at 14?

I'm not saying I agree with the above sentiments, but those do come to mind. Depending on the situation, maybe it was more responsible to give the baby up. But that highlights two things:

1) THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE ISSUE. Not knowing the facts, we can't even say which option is the most responsible. You can't just have a blanket ban and think that solves everything. The current state is it is possible to have abortions for dumb reasons, but the opposite just means that absolutely no one can have an abortion even if they have the best of reasons.

2) Why wouldn't abortion have been equally responsible? Either way she's not caring for a child she didn't want, the only difference is whether she allows it to be born or not and whether it involves other people. If she gets an abortion, everything returns to what it was before. If she doesn't, now other people have to take her burden. I really don't see how adoption is any more responsible, in some ways it's far less responsible.
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#34JonWood007Posted 2/6/2013 12:03:36 AM(edited)
Not to mention the pro life crowd is completely off its rocker and I don't trust them to govern on the issue properly. Not when they're passing the ridiculous laws that they are and thinking pregnancy doesn't happen in cases of "legitimate rape".

It's better to keep the status quo than to force such bad laws on everyone.

And yeah, adoption causes problems of its own. Granted, many adopted children turn out fine, but still, some end up being the state's problem, some end up being unloved. Not to mention overpopulation and our carbon footprints and all. Not knocking adoption, but it's not an end all solution.

I hate "responsibility" arguments. It has an arrogant air of false moral superiority to it. There is not a one size fits all solution here.

The thing is, I consider the harm done minimal. Everyone gets to go back to the way it was before, and while the fetus was dead, it logically only ever existed in body, not in mind, and therefore can't really be considered a person in a legal sense IMO.
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#35Julian_CaesarPosted 2/6/2013 10:13:10 PM
From: JonWood007 | #034
I hate "responsibility" arguments. It has an arrogant air of false moral superiority to it. There is not a one size fits all solution here.


There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, as ya'll said earlier. I have no problem with calling people irresponsible for getting an abortion just because they don't want the inconvenience of raising a child, and it happens all the time. At the same time, I don't think making abortion illegal serves any purpose because it's legislating morality, which opens the door for much more horrible laws in the future. And no, it wasn't legislation of morality to allow abortions...it was leaving morality up to the individual. Which is the way things should be, especially since there are plenty of instances where the mother/couple getting the abortion really feel like they're doing the more responsible thing. I might disagree on their definition of "responsible", but it's absurd of me to deny that they're trying to be responsible based on what they believe about human life.

So I very much like the "responsibility" arguments, but I suspect that I define them very differently from most pro-lifers. The only area that I'm really concerned about when it comes to abortion, is that the typical pro-choice definition of "human life" is a dangerous path. At what point do we start looking at the elderly, who are going in the opposite direction, and decide that their regression due to to Alzheimer's or Parkinson's is so bad that they are not truly "alive" either? I know that it sounds like an absurd jump in logic, and maybe it is actually too absurd to actually happen. But I would much, MUCH rather be safe than sorry on that point, and at least make sure people think about the concept.
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#36JonWood007Posted 2/6/2013 11:14:44 PM
To be fair, I wouldnt even consider early term abortions to be frivolous or irresponsible, because honestly I don't think what is lost can really be valued that much. I mean, the fetus may be there in body, but I think the mind is what matters. Second trimester I see your point, that's kind of my position, should be legal, but I'd personally be a little uncomfortable especially toward the end. I think certain legal restrictions third term are plausible, although I think that they should be well written, a lot of abortion laws in legislatures nowadays aren't.

As for the other side of things, I think it can be solved through a combination of 1) Once we bestow rights upon a human, we can't take them away until they're confirmed dead and 2) living wills. You can argue the philosophical aspect of this, but I'm more into the legal aspect here.
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#37AynRandySavagePosted 2/7/2013 9:26:54 AM
Julian_Caesar posted...
But I would much, MUCH rather be safe than sorry on that point, and at least make sure people think about the concept.


Peter Singer has already written extensively about that topic.
#38fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 10:14:55 AM
Julian_Caesar posted...
I have no problem with calling people irresponsible for getting an abortion just because they don't want the inconvenience of raising a child, and it happens all the time.


Well, when you characterize raising a child as a mere "inconvenience" it may seem that way. If a woman is not at a point in her life where she feels that raising a child is the best course of action, she may opt for abortion. I don't see how that's irresponsible. Sure, maybe she acted irresponsibly when she conceived the child, or maybe not, but either way, receiving the abortion isn't the irresponsible action
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#39JonWood007Posted 2/7/2013 10:19:14 AM
^^Not to mention let's not forget that we should not treat women as walking baby factories. Some people just aren't fit to be parents. Some people are great parents, love kids, some are crappy parents, hate kids, some might be good in the future, but aren't ready. The point is, people have REASONS for getting abortion, and I think people have a certain degree of reproductive rights.
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#40fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 10:49:12 AM
To me, honestly, the fact that a woman would choose to get an abortion suggests that it would likely be irresponsible for her to choose to raise a child at that time. A woman isn't going to get an abortion for literally no reason, and pretty much any reason a woman would have for choosing to get an abortion (even, or perhaps especially, "bad reasons") that I can imagine, would also qualify as a reason that she really shouldn't raise a child.
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