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"Angstheist" is an ugly, ill-conceived word.

#61kozlo100Posted 2/7/2013 5:07:08 PM
I would tend to agree, and without getting all aggro on Fudrick, I still can't think of an instance where someone saying something they believe is true can be usefully described as lying.
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#62TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/7/2013 5:10:18 PM
kozlo100 posted...
I would tend to agree, and without getting all aggro on Fudrick, I still can't think of an instance where someone saying something they believe is true can be usefully described as lying.


We are on the same page on this. If we accept definition 1b, then "lie" is a trivial word whose application can never be decided for certain.
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#63fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 5:14:34 PM
The fact that Jon used it that way in this thread addresses the "show me an instance of someone using it that way" demands of the other thread, but whether or not it's useful to use the word "lie" in that situation is a different issue of course. I'd certainly agree that other words would be more useful, accurate, and specific in that scenario.

Perhaps the "lying to yourself" example given in the other thread? I dunno
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#64kozlo100Posted 2/7/2013 5:23:14 PM
I think the 'show me someone' implies they want to see someone correctly using it that way. I guess poetic licence might count for that.

Lying to yourself though, that seems to have the same problems as lying to others. Either you know you're doing it or you don't. If you don't, it's just a mistake, not a lie.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#65TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/7/2013 5:23:54 PM
fudrick posted...
The fact that Jon used it that way in this thread addresses the "show me an instance of someone using it that way" demands of the other thread, but whether or not it's useful to use the word "lie" in that situation is a different issue of course. I'd certainly agree that other words would be more useful, accurate, and specific in that scenario.

Perhaps the "lying to yourself" example given in the other thread? I dunno


If someone is lying to themselves, I would argue that they by definition know, on some deeper level, that what they are saying is false. "Lying to yourself", if definition 1b holds, is nothing more than believing something that is false. This would mean that, if God does exist, you are lying to yourself. But how can you know?

If you cannot know whether any given thing you say is a lie or not, it isnt really a useful word
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#66UnfairRepresentPosted 2/7/2013 5:35:27 PM
The only thing that bugs me is when it's used to label people (including those who are not atheists) who are trying to stop severe human rights violations and highlight serious critical problems in religious churches.

I've been called an angstheist for my anger towards the Catholics immensely exasperating the aids epidemic in Africa and their history of child rape (and more importantly, their cover-up and lack of justice to the rapists). Which I think is absurd.

And I think every single person other than the ignorant and the devout Catholics wholeheartedly agree and are angry for the same reasons. Atheist or not.
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#67fudrickPosted 2/7/2013 5:35:41 PM
kozlo100 posted...
I think the 'show me someone' implies they want to see someone correctly using it that way.


Well if someone denies that that's a proper definition for the word, they're never going to accept any usage of the word in that way as correct, right? I feel like I'm missing something here =/

kozlo100 posted...
Lying to yourself though, that seems to have the same problems as lying to others. Either you know you're doing it or you don't. If you don't, it's just a mistake, not a lie.


I can agree that it would be better if the term "lying" was only used properly in cases where the inaccuracy is intentional. Still though, the dictionary does cite the opposite as a legitimate usage, and people do still use it in that way in some cases as evidenced by Jon's post in this thread, and if the combination of those two facts doesn't constitute a definition, I'm not sure what does, lol

TheRealJiraiya posted...
If someone is lying to themselves, I would argue that they by definition know, on some deeper level, that what they are saying is false. "Lying to yourself", if definition 1b holds, is nothing more than believing something that is false. This would mean that, if God does exist, you are lying to yourself. But how can you know?

If you cannot know whether any given thing you say is a lie or not, it isnt really a useful word


Yeah, I pretty much agree with you here to be honest. Although, even if definition 1b was the main definition, I still don't think I'd exactly be lying to myself in the case that god exists, as I'm not making the definitive statement that he doesn't. I'm just also not making the statement that he does.
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#68kozlo100Posted 2/7/2013 6:23:21 PM
I think part of our difference of opinion comes from me not giving the dictionary any prescriptive authority, it is strictly descriptive to my mind. So we shouldn't really be looking to it to figure out how a word ought to be used.

In my opinion Jon was wrong to use it as he did, and the dictionary definition is only describing an usage I think is incorrect.
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The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick
#69JonWood007Posted 2/7/2013 6:42:21 PM
I love how people are totally saying the dictionary is wrong because it goes against their opinion of what the word means.
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#70TheRealJiraiyaPosted 2/7/2013 6:43:26 PM
JonWood007 posted...
I love how people are totally saying the dictionary is wrong because it goes against their opinion of what the word means.


I love how an atheist is pointing to a book and declaring, against all logical arguments, that it is the single source of universal truth on the matter ;P
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