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Is "tolerance" of the religious and the secularists good or is it disrespectful?

#11UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 4:30:50 PM
cyclonekruse posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
I don't think he thinks non-confrontation is condescending, I think he thinks patronizating is condescending.

That might be true. But the example that he gave of finding fundamentalist Christians to be more respectful because they're open in declaring that he's wrong doesn't speak to such a viewpoint.


Kinda does.

What I actually expressed was the sentiment that you ought to believe what you feel is bet and I'll believe what I feel is best. So long as those beliefs only affect us individually, go nuts. I honestly don't care what you believe. You're free to believe whatever you want based on your "feelings." However, if those beliefs start affecting others (especially in an adverse way), that's when we have a problem.


Said unironically while the majority of the anti-homosexuality and science movements are religious.
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#12cyclonekrusePosted 2/11/2013 4:35:58 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
Kinda does.

Could you perhaps explain how?

Said unironically while the majority of the anti-homosexuality and science movements are religious.

That might be true. But irrelevant to my statement.
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#13UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 4:54:16 PM
cyclonekruse posted...

Could you perhaps explain how?


I'm atheist. When someone tells me they believe in God and try to debate it, It's interesting to see their viewpoint. When they ignore everything, all reason, all arguments and just say "Oh well you will find the truth eventually and I'll pray for you." all they're doing is insulting me. And themselves


That might be true. But irrelevant to my statement.


No it's not. For 2 reasons:

You're saying Mason's "faith" is bad because it hurts people, while ignoring the fact Christian faith does the same.

And secondly you're ignoring how non harmful faith is still being justified. "The raindrops on my window are a message from God in code telling me to get a pet kitten."
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#14cyclonekrusePosted 2/11/2013 5:16:26 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
I'm atheist. When someone tells me they believe in God and try to debate it, It's interesting to see their viewpoint. When they ignore everything, all reason, all arguments and just say "Oh well you will find the truth eventually and I'll pray for you." all they're doing is insulting me. And themselves

Like I said, I can see how tolerance can be condescending. In the scenario you gave, it is somewhat patronizing. However you can't go from can be to is condescending unless you show that tolerance is necessarily condescending. Not everyone who disagrees with you is going to "pray for you." Maybe they just are content to let you have your view.

No it's not. For 2 reasons:

You're saying Mason's "faith" is bad because it hurts people, while ignoring the fact Christian faith does the same.

First, "Christianity" does not suppress homosexuality or what have you. Some forms of Christianity may but some Christians are also very open towards homosexuals. You're making a leap. Second, what exactly am I ignoring? I disagree with people using their Christian (or Hindu or Muslim or Pagan) beliefs to make laws.

And secondly you're ignoring how non harmful faith is still being justified. "The raindrops on my window are a message from God in code telling me to get a pet kitten."

I don't see a problem with that. I'm not "ignoring" it, I just don't care if that's how someone justifies getting a kitten. If getting the kitten makes them happy and they treat the kitten well, then what is there to get in a huff about?
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Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#15UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/11/2013 5:27:04 PM
cyclonekruse posted...

Like I said, I can see how tolerance can be condescending. In the scenario you gave, it is somewhat patronizing. However you can't go from can be to is condescending unless you show that tolerance is necessarily condescending. Not everyone who disagrees with you is going to "pray for you." Maybe they just are content to let you have your view.


I've very rarely since it not be patronizing.


First, "Christianity" does not suppress homosexuality


Yes it does.

r what have you. Some forms of Christianity may but some Christians are also very open towards homosexuals. You're making a leap. Second, what exactly am I ignoring? I disagree with people using their Christian (or Hindu or Muslim or Pagan) beliefs to make laws.


No you're making a leap by ignoring reality.


I don't see a problem with that. I'm not "ignoring" it, I just don't care if that's how someone justifies getting a kitten. If getting the kitten makes them happy and they treat the kitten well, then what is there to get in a huff about?


Whether it actually makes them happy is debatable, meanwhile it does effectively damage everything in society. It condones and defends mental illness, ignorance and stupidity.
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#16cyclonekrusePosted 2/11/2013 5:43:01 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
I've very rarely since it not be patronizing.

Sounds like an appeal to ignorance.

Yes it does.
No you're making a leap by ignoring reality.

Interesting that you accuse me of ignoring reality when you ignore the many Christians that do not suppress homosexuals. For example:

http://www.gaychristian101.com/

My point is that if a specific Christian or group is doing something harmful or advocating doing something harmful, then go ahead and criticize them. I'm thinking of the likes of the WBC. But don't lump all Christians together as if they were some monolithic group because as can be plainly seen in the sheer number of different denominations, they're not.

Whether it actually makes them happy is debatable, meanwhile it does effectively damage everything in society. It condones and defends mental illness, ignorance and stupidity.

Irrational beliefs are not equivalent to mental illness. Granted, irrational beliefs can be the breeding ground for ignorance, but not necessarily so. Some irrational beliefs are harmless (or even beneficial) so if you hold one, then I say great for you. Whatever works for you. I'm not going to judge.
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Locke: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" || Jack "Why do you find it so easy?!" ||
Locke: "It's never been easy!"
#17sthaterPosted 2/12/2013 12:58:05 AM
Well if you're merely "tolerating" someone then really I would say that means you're respecting their right to live and function as they choose... and that's about it. I guess if you consider only having the bare minimum of respect from someone disrespectful then I there really isn't any way to argue against that.

For my part I really just don't give a damn about trying to convince other people to agree with what I think about anything really. It honestly strikes me as rather obnoxious and juvenile. And really this isn't even just about religion but really any subject. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with explaining why I believe or think what I think or why I disagree with something. I think anybody who really feels the need to get everyone to agree with him/her probably has some real self-esteem issues.
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#18UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 2/17/2013 9:54:55 PM
I don't believe a man who has been on religious message boards for 7 years doesn't care whether or not people want to discuss things with him
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#19bratt100Posted 2/18/2013 3:32:08 AM
If a man was 32 and he still believed in Santa you would consider him either mentally retarded (not a PC word but still relevant in this discussion) or delusional. Both of which are mental disorders. The belief in god is more or less the same. It's the irrational belief in something that has no evidence and in many cases they believe that god guides them. Do you not believe this is used to back up their own misguided beliefs?

Also Christians are the ONLY reason that gay marriage is not legal most of the USA. This is not really debatable.
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#20thegreatsquarePosted 2/19/2013 3:00:55 AM
Romans 14

It's the ancient Christian version of "It's OK to not like things", and it covers every argument regardless of the topic.


...so that's +1 for "tolerance is good".
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