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Hypothetical question (mature subject matter; viewer discretion is advised)

#11SilviiroPosted 3/27/2013 6:09:35 PM(edited)
Just a note, this is not true. I am not saying you are incorrect, just that you're wrong.

So when Jesus died he went immediately to Heaven? Kind of a lame 3 days "in the belly of the Earth" then.
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#12TheRealJiraiyaPosted 3/27/2013 9:16:50 PM
Silviiro posted...
Just a note, this is not true. I am not saying you are incorrect, just that you're wrong.

So when Jesus died he went immediately to Heaven? Kind of a lame 3 days "in the belly of the Earth" then.


Hmm.. maybe he meant that today the man would be with him, the Godhead, in Paradise, rather than him, Jesus, the Son?
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
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#13TheRealJiraiyaPosted 3/27/2013 9:17:53 PM
^ Im aware that explanation sounds a bit weird, but it makes more sense than "today wasnt really today" or "Paradise wasnt really Paradise".

But its moot, another example is Paul, who was literally attempting to kill all of the Christians when he converted.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#14OrangeWizardPosted 3/27/2013 9:40:22 PM
From: Silviiro | #011
So when Jesus died he went immediately to Heaven?


He didn't go anywhere.
From: TheRealJiraiya | #012
Hmm.. maybe he meant that today the man would be with him


He meant "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
Not.
"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise".

Because, in keeping with the rest of the bible, paradise happens after the judgement, not immediately upon death.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#15TheRealJiraiyaPosted 3/27/2013 9:52:56 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
From: TheRealJiraiya | #012
Hmm.. maybe he meant that today the man would be with him


He meant "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
Not.
"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise".

Because, in keeping with the rest of the bible, paradise happens after the judgement, not immediately upon death.


Thats true. Id like to hear from a Greek expert before I agree, but it makes sense to me.
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One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
http://tinyurl.com/JoinThisIRunIt
#16Moorish_IdolPosted 3/27/2013 10:15:30 PM
http://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/23-43-compare.html

Literally no translations have the comma after "today".

What is your source, OW?
#17OrangeWizardPosted 3/27/2013 10:29:59 PM
From: Moorish_Idol | #016
Literally no translations have the comma after "today".


No translations listed on that site.

My source is my bible, and the footnote comment, which reads:

“Today.” Although WH puts a comma in the Gr. text before the word for “today,” commas were not used in Gr. uncial mss. In keeping with the context, we omit the comma before “today.” Syc (fifth cent. C.E.) renders this text: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.”—F. C. Burkitt, The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Vol. I, Cambridge, 1904."

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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#18Moorish_IdolPosted 3/27/2013 10:56:45 PM
Which translation is your Bible? It seems weird that all 29 translations on that site would be wrong.
#19OrangeWizardPosted 3/27/2013 10:58:45 PM
From: Moorish_Idol | #018
Which translation is your Bible? It seems weird that all 29 translations on that site would be wrong.


The New World Translation, or the JW bible, as some people call it.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#20SilviiroPosted 3/28/2013 2:29:31 PM
He meant "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
Not.
"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise".


This is based on some of the more questionable manuscripts. There is actually a manuscript discrepancy in this case, but the more generally trusted manuscripts lean toward the majority translation.

Because, in keeping with the rest of the bible, paradise happens after the judgement, not immediately upon death.

There is still the matter of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the story of which was clearly not taking place after the Judgement and was also clearly taking place outside of Heaven or Hell. Was Jesus just telling a fancy sci-fi story when all of his other parables were about physical realities?

And if Paradise does not yet exist, what of "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise —whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter." -- 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4 ?

There is a clear distinction between that man's visit of Paradise and the third Heaven. (The first Heaven being the sky, the second Heaven being the stars, and the third Heaven being the home of God.)
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14