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Hypothetical question (mature subject matter; viewer discretion is advised)

#21DarkContractorPosted 3/28/2013 2:44:57 PM
If I want to read up on the theology behind these different Heavens where might be a good starting point?
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#22OrangeWizardPosted 3/28/2013 4:22:35 PM
From: Silviiro | #020
This is based on some of the more questionable manuscripts. There is actually a manuscript discrepancy in this case, but the more generally trusted manuscripts lean toward the majority translation.


The manuscripts don't contain commas, so I don't really understand what you mean by "manuscript discrepancy".

There is still the matter of the Rich Man and Lazarus


A parable that is not meant to be an insight into the logistics of "heaven and hell", but a teaching tool to get across a totally unrelated point. It's unfortunate that so many think "This is what it must really be like!", when it's just a visual metaphor.

Was Jesus just telling a fancy sci-fi story when all of his other parables were about physical realities?


Yes.

And if Paradise does not yet exist, what of "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise —whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter." -- 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4 ?


This was Paul's own vision.

There is a clear distinction between that man's visit of Paradise and the third Heaven.


What? No there isn't.
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#23SilviiroPosted 3/30/2013 4:32:27 PM
If I want to read up on the theology behind these different Heavens where might be a good starting point?

First place to start reading anything is Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise#Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_state

The manuscripts don't contain commas, so I don't really understand what you mean by "manuscript discrepancy".

Some of them do, and in the ones that do there is a discrepancy.

A parable that is not meant to be an insight into the logistics of "heaven and hell", but a teaching tool to get across a totally unrelated point. It's unfortunate that so many think "This is what it must really be like!", when it's just a visual metaphor.

None of his other parables use a fantasy as an illustration. That would make it extremely anomalous.

This was Paul's own vision.

It does not matter whose vision it was, or whether or not it was a vision or a physical transportation. (Paul did not know, and it seems kind of bold to claim to know more than he did.) We have a clear example of someone seeing something you claim did not exist.

What? No there isn't.

So if I said "I went to Pizza Hut. And I went to Walmart." the implication is that Pizza Hut and Walmart are the same place?
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14
#24OrangeWizardPosted 3/30/2013 4:47:39 PM
From: Silviiro | #023
Some of them do, and in the ones that do there is a discrepancy.


Prove it?

None of his other parables use a fantasy as an illustration.


What other parables involve symbolic death?
You don't really have a precedent in this case.


We have a clear example of someone seeing something you claim did not exist.


Yeah. That's what visions normally are.

So if I said "I went to Pizza Hut. And I went to Walmart." the implication is that Pizza Hut and Walmart are the same place?


No.
However, Pizza Hut and Walmart are clearly two separate establishments.

Who are you to say that "Paradise" and "Third Heaven" are two different places? How do you know that "Paradise" isn't another way of referring to "Third Heaven", like "Wally world" isn't another way of referring to "Walmart"?


I believe that Heaven and a Paradise Earth are two different places, but I'm just speaking up for logic here.

Just because the sentence is structured in such a way, it does not mean that you couldn't use a synonym there.

If you can say "I went to Wally World. And I went to Walmart", it doesn't mean that these two are different things. Even so, the verse isn't even structured as "I went to X. And I went to Y."

It's structured like "I know a man who went to the X. And I know this man went to Y".
So "I know a man who went to the Wally World. And I know this man went to WalMart"

So I don't see how the mere structure of the sentence negates the possibility that the author is referring to the same place two different ways.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#25SilviiroPosted 4/2/2013 2:53:55 PM
Prove it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise#Christianity

3rd paragraph

What other parables involve symbolic death?
You don't really have a precedent in this case.


Who says it is symbolic death rather than actual death? His parables all involved physical examples, wouldn't it make sense that this would also be a physical example? That is, if it is indeed a parable and not an actual event.

Yeah. That's what visions normally are.

Things that don't exist?

If you can say "I went to Wally World. And I went to Walmart", it doesn't mean that these two are different things. Even so, the verse isn't even structured as "I went to X. And I went to Y."

That is logically valid, but grammatically unlikely. A child may say that, but a highly educated man like Paul, who uses a lot of very complex sentences, is unlikely to use such language.

I believe that Heaven and a Paradise Earth are two different places, but I'm just speaking up for logic here.

So your disagreement with my original statement is that you believe Paradise is on Earth rather than Sheol?
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"I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind." -- Ecclesiastes 1:14