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In honor of Easter, let's entertain the supposed evidence for the resurrection

#1Mike_StantonPosted 3/31/2013 6:12:31 PM
"The apostles wouldn't die for something that they lied about"

Um...of course they would. If they wanted to believe in Jesus' divinity then they'd martyr themselves regardless of whether they actually witnessed it or not.

"There was an empty tomb according to the Bible."

Do I even need to explain myself here? The Bible might be a valid historical document for a simple claim like "so and so existed at this point in time" but I'm pretty sure there's a difference between a secondary document that claims mundane things like that and a secondary document that makes claims about ghosts and goblins.
#2OrangeWizardPosted 3/31/2013 6:23:03 PM
From: Mike_Stanton | #001
Um...of course they would. If they wanted to believe in Jesus' divinity then they'd martyr themselves regardless of whether they actually witnessed it or not.



I don't see how this is an "of course they would" conclusion. I don't see how anything you said makes it clear that someone would die for something they knew they just made up.
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#3Mike_Stanton(Topic Creator)Posted 3/31/2013 6:37:13 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #002
From: Mike_Stanton | #001
Um...of course they would. If they wanted to believe in Jesus' divinity then they'd martyr themselves regardless of whether they actually witnessed it or not.



I don't see how this is an "of course they would" conclusion. I don't see how anything you said makes it clear that someone would die for something they knew they just made up.

They wouldn't have to witness the exact resurrection any more than the ancient Greeks would have had to have actually seen Zeus throw a lightning bolt.
#4IamvegitoPosted 3/31/2013 6:37:55 PM
From: Mike_Stanton | #001
"The apostles wouldn't die for something that they lied about"

Um...of course they would. If they wanted to believe in Jesus' divinity then they'd martyr themselves regardless of whether they actually witnessed it or not.

I wouldn't make the former argument anyway, but I think you'd have a hard time proving that claim. Also, the divinity of Jesus was a minority movement in the primordial church, and still isn't agreed upon today.
"There was an empty tomb according to the Bible."

Do I even need to explain myself here? The Bible might be a valid historical document for a simple claim like "so and so existed at this point in time" but I'm pretty sure there's a difference between a secondary document that claims mundane things like that and a secondary document that makes claims about ghosts and goblins.

Well, yeah. I wouldn't claim that miraculous things are historical evidence, either.

Interestingly, the oldest manuscripts of the oldest Gospel (Mark) leave out the resurrection entirely. That leaves us with "political opponent to the Empire in a backwater province that scared them so much they needed to crucify him." That's pretty deep as-is, but the resurrection, the denial of the Empire's power over life and death, adds some hope to the story.
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#5Hustle KongPosted 3/31/2013 6:40:58 PM
There are a lot of **** topics here lately. Good gods.
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#6OrangeWizardPosted 3/31/2013 6:42:26 PM
From: Mike_Stanton | #003
They wouldn't have to witness the exact resurrection any more than the ancient Greeks would have had to have actually seen Zeus throw a lightning bolt.



But that isn't analogous to the situation of someone dying for something that they made up.

Dying for what you believe in =/= Dying for what you made up
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#7bratt100Posted 3/31/2013 6:46:09 PM
Many people are willing to die for their own cause. It has happened within different cults and many of those in the past hundred years. All it took was one person to die for the cause for their beliefs to be vindicated in the eyes of their followers.
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#8Wandering__HeroPosted 3/31/2013 6:52:39 PM
You'd all be better off eating your choclate eggs, but since you insist

http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm
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#9OrangeWizardPosted 3/31/2013 6:54:59 PM
From: bratt100 | #007
Many people are willing to die for their own cause.


Dying for a cause =/= Dying for what you made up
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive things.
#10DarkContractorPosted 3/31/2013 6:56:47 PM
From: bratt100 | #007
Many people are willing to die for their own cause. It has happened within different cults and many of those in the past hundred years. All it took was one person to die for the cause for their beliefs to be vindicated in the eyes of their followers.



this. by this logic Islam is correct.

I mean, we have an empty tomb. This is not impossible. An empty tomb does not require divine intervention. Nor does someone being mispronounced as dead. Nor is a grave being robbed. Etc. I mean there are tons of secular possibilities to rule out before you make a claim of divine intervention. Just because an empty tomb is there there is no evidence. Based on the context it might be implicative of the Resurrection, but until you can establish that in fact the dead Jesus left the tomb on his own, you don't have evidence anymore than my dirty cutting board means I prepared a meal earlier.

And I mean, none of the Gospels bare witness to Jesus actually departing the tomb by himself, Mark did not even see Jesus at the end, and John did not mention the ascension. And these are pretty big details. I mean you don't just ignore the fact that someone was resurrected from the dead. that's not a minor detail, lol.
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