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I can't help but notice deconverts read the Bible more than Christians.

#181kts123(Topic Creator)Posted 4/22/2013 1:28:04 PM
Do me a favor and ask TRJ how much time we spend talking about Christianity and how much time I've genuinely looked post-deconversion for a reason to believe but couldn't find any


Yes, how much time YOU tried to figure out the great mysteries of the universe. How much time YOU tried to sort through endless contradictory claims. How much time YOU used YOUR mental faculties to try to make sense of things. If you haven't noticed we have several billion people doing the same thing and so far we haven't managed to agree. What makes you think you're even capable of figuring something so profound out? How do you know you'd be able to make sense of the evidence even if it was right in front of you?

If God had as much evidence as the Holocaust, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as terrorists attacking the Trade Centers, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as Evolution, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as the Big Bang, people would still deny Him.

What makes you so sure your denial of God isn't just as loco as a Holocaust denier? Because you're just too smart to fall victim to crazy thinking? What makes you so special as to be immune to the mistakes everyone else makes?
#182DarkContractorPosted 4/22/2013 3:51:00 PM
From: kts123 | #181
Do me a favor and ask TRJ how much time we spend talking about Christianity and how much time I've genuinely looked post-deconversion for a reason to believe but couldn't find any


Yes, how much time YOU tried to figure out the great mysteries of the universe. How much time YOU tried to sort through endless contradictory claims. How much time YOU used YOUR mental faculties to try to make sense of things. If you haven't noticed we have several billion people doing the same thing and so far we haven't managed to agree. What makes you think you're even capable of figuring something so profound out?

Alright, let's follow this to the logical conclusion: No one knows what happened! Quit pretending you do!

How do you know you'd be able to make sense of the evidence even if it was right in front of you?


By asking myself what conditions would be true if God is real. I can also philosophical reasoning, the scientific method.

If God had as much evidence as the Holocaust, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as terrorists attacking the Trade Centers, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as Evolution, people would still deny Him. If God had as much evidence as the Big Bang, people would still deny Him.


Ironically, you have no evidence for that claim. It seems to me this is just an effect of your dogmatism that everyone is simply too prideful to believe in God, so in reality YOU are the one suffering from the backfire effect.

What makes you so sure your denial of God isn't just as loco as a Holocaust denier? Because you're just too smart to fall victim to crazy thinking? What makes you so special as to be immune to the mistakes everyone else makes?


Ah, so I'll be an agnostic (Like I have been! (Except for Christianity, which can be disproven thus I'm gnosticly an atheist to that! See my Peter/John thread!)

Also, if you wanna see a really good example of the backfire effect, google up a creationism vs evolution debate or christian apologetics for biblical contradictions. It's a laugh a minute!
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#183DarkContractorPosted 4/22/2013 3:53:30 PM
Also, you forgot to respond to hunter, who pretty much tore apart your argument. From: Moorish_Idol | #180
inferiorweasel posted...
Moorish_Idol posted...
I've noticed this too. It's certainly true if me, at least. Personally my Bible study is more of a search for why I should believe; what in the Bible makes people believe it?

I'm not sure why so many devout people read very little of the Bible. I've thought before that maybe it has to do with feeling they've already met the requirements (repentance) so it's not really important anymore to study it. Kind of how someone may never again study Spanish after meeting the foreign language college credit requirement.


Better to believe and be proven wrong, than not believe and be proven right. 1 way is salvation, the other way is destruction and death.

Though we all die, we do not all die twice. May I suggest you read Hebrews? Or the book of John?

I will pray for you, your case is ideal for the parable of the lost son,

Luke 15:11

Jesus loves you my brother/sister.

I've read Hebrews and John several times already. Both on my own and because I had to read the Bible through twice as part of my high school classes (I went to a Christian school).

Prayers weren't effective enough to keep me in the faith, so I'm not sure why they'd be effective enough to make me return.



Really the implications of his post are frightening. What would it say if prayer is effective in bringing salvation to the lost? It means that some atheists are going to Hell because some people going to Heaven didn't pray for us.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#184kts123(Topic Creator)Posted 4/23/2013 6:05:17 AM(edited)
Alright, let's follow this to the logical conclusion: No one knows what happened! Quit pretending you do!


Think about what you just did.

"Therefore, using my mistake-proof brain, we should all believe..." You just kicked the can down the road and said "See, now there isn't a can in the road!"

Ironically, you have no evidence for that claim. It seems to me this is just an effect of your dogmatism that everyone is simply too prideful to believe in God, so in reality YOU are the one suffering from the backfire effect.


No, I don't think you're too prideful to believe in God. I think you've simply fallen prey to thinking you can avoid mental traps when everyone else can't. Again, that's exactly what psychology tells us -- everyone thinks they're immune to thinking errors!

Ah, so I'll be an agnostic Like I have been!


"Therefore, everyone should be agnostic like me..." This sounds nice an appealing, but it doesn't dodge the problems associated with mistaken thinking patterns. You have just once again convinced yourself of having an above-average extra-clever position.

Also, if you wanna see a really good example of the backfire effect, google up a creationism vs evolution debate or christian apologetics for biblical contradictions. It's a laugh a minute!


Both are on the polar opposite end of the spectrum. I agree, the anti-evolution crowd is horrendously in error in most of their arguments. But the contradiction kids clearly have no idea what they're talking about, either.
#185DarkContractorPosted 4/24/2013 3:32:16 PM

Think about what you just did.

"Therefore, using my mistake-proof brain, we should all believe..." You just kicked the can down the road and said "See, now there isn't a can in the road!"


I didn't do that. Ironically, you tell us what kind of can it was and when someone drank from it despite the label being torn off.

No, I don't think you're too prideful to believe in God.

Cool, you're in disagreement with the Bible. Romans 1:18-end of the chapter.

I think you've simply fallen prey to thinking you can avoid mental traps when everyone else can't. Again, that's exactly what psychology tells us -- everyone thinks they're immune to thinking errors!


No I haven't. I concede things on this forum all the time. Please don't tell me you're going to ask me to provide examples. I will if you want me to, but I'd rather not be arsed. In fact, on this very subject (the Exodus) OW disproved something I said about it the other day and I immediately conceded the point and dropped the subject about the Exodus. What you 'think' about me is a strawman.


"Therefore, everyone should be agnostic like me..." This sounds nice an appealing, but it doesn't dodge the problems associated with mistaken thinking patterns. You have just once again convinced yourself of having an above-average extra-clever position.


No I haven't. My position of gnostic atheism towards Christianity, however, might be arrogant but no matter how many times I put forth my arguments I've found zero rebuttals. (In fact, the two arguments I DO use, the fact I don't find God self-evident whatsoever, leading me to gnostic atheism, has only been attempted to rationalize once, and no one's even told me what a hole could even by in my historical arguments (feel free to give it a looksie, it's my Peter/John topic)

Both are on the polar opposite end of the spectrum. I agree, the anti-evolution crowd is horrendously in error in most of their arguments. But the contradiction kids clearly have no idea what they're talking about, either.



A lot of the claimed contradictions are ****, given. I lol when I see people make the God of peace and God of war contradiction claim. But some of them are only mutable through mental hoops and ad hocs not implied whatsoever in the textual or contextual interpretations.

I mean what do you want? Shall I put a DISCLAIMER: I COULD BE WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING at the end of everyone of my posts? Post your damn evidence already; all you've done is thrown out ad hominems and they don't even apply; you're ad hominizing a strawman. The burden of proof is on the one making a claim, you wanna show where we've errored in our logic, that is up to you.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#186IamvegitoPosted 4/24/2013 3:51:15 PM
From: DarkContractor | #185
Cool, you're in disagreement with the Bible. Romans 1:18-end of the chapter.

Stop proof-texting, for one, and stop doing it when it's not what the passage is about. The entire beginning of Romans is about "how Jews and Gentiles have been historically different," leading up to how Christianity isn't exclusive to Judaism.

As bad as the fundies, indeed.
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"A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."
#187DarkContractorPosted 4/24/2013 3:57:16 PM
From: Iamvegito | #186
From: DarkContractor | #185
Cool, you're in disagreement with the Bible. Romans 1:18-end of the chapter.

Stop proof-texting, for one, and stop doing it when it's not what the passage is about. The entire beginning of Romans is about "how Jews and Gentiles have been historically different," leading up to how Christianity isn't exclusive to Judaism.

As bad as the fundies, indeed.



So ever since the beginning of time, people saw God's invisible qualities but this stopped right around when Paul wrote the letter concerning this.

Okay.
Verse 18 "But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, who suppress the truth by their wickedness."

A lot of people like to play the 'context' card as though that magically changes the implications. Paul still said what he said.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#188IamvegitoPosted 4/24/2013 4:08:40 PM
From: DarkContractor | #187
Taking the Bible literally when it suits your interests?

Cool, I have no reason to discuss anything about it with you, then.
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"A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."
#189DarkContractorPosted 4/24/2013 4:21:40 PM
From: Iamvegito | #188
From: DarkContractor | #187
Taking the Bible literally when it suits your interests?

Cool, I have no reason to discuss anything about it with you, then.



haha, this is the second time you've engaged in discourse with me only to act like a pompous dick and cop out because you couldn't come up with a rebuttal.

I don't take it literally when it suits my interest, I take it literally when it seems like it is written literally. Christians are the one who take it metaphorically when it suits their interest. In fact, name something I haven't taken literally in this argument, show me where my post of mine is where I treated something as nonliteral with the purpose of strengthening an argument of mine. I'll be waited. *rests chin in hands*

I want the figurative device, the hint of sarcasm, whatever it is that leads you to the conclusion that this passage was not to be taken literally (I'll also take your cop out as acknowledgment of the fact that you just went from treating it as a historical document to some sort of metaphorical allegory.)
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#190IamvegitoPosted 4/24/2013 4:34:03 PM
From: DarkContractor | #189
No, you are acting like a fundie. You're literally not worth any more of my time than necessary, since not a single part of the Bible is "literal" in the sense you want it to be, nor is Paul some sort of infallible messenger for all time of who God is. You might be the most obvious troll on this board, and that's saying something with LMS hanging around.
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"A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."