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Let me just throw this question out there. Isn't it true that Satan

#111DarkContractorPosted 4/28/2013 3:59:22 AM(edited)

Because the tree has reality independent of the mind. Just like how a scientist can create a genetically modified organism, and that organism would be objective. Yet if that same scientist then went and created a board game, those rules would have come about entirely subjectively.


Thank you, this explains it more clearly than I was. To add on from here, while it would be a fact those game rules existed, the question of whether or not these were 'good' rules to abide by, whether they were reliable, requires a bottom up.


Really all the arguments against an arbitrary bottom up are just special pleading and/or completely illogical.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#112OrangeWizardPosted 4/28/2013 12:33:55 PM
From: DarkContractor | #109
From: OrangeWizard | #106
I'm going to act like a broken record player.


Okay


So your grand, argument-closing rebuttal is "You're acting like a broken record"?
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#113JonWood007Posted 4/28/2013 1:26:44 PM
Actually he posted a huge response which you just ignored, and then gave a one sentence rebuttal to the whole thing.
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#114OrangeWizardPosted 4/28/2013 1:53:47 PM
That huge response was not directed at me, if you'd notice.

See? You not only ignore me, but your allies as well.

You need to work on that. Clearly you're not ready to come back from time-out.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#115JonWood007Posted 4/28/2013 2:27:00 PM(edited)
Ok, my bad, looking at your post, not a whole lot to respond to though other than pithy one liners though.

If youre wondering why i got thrown off, it was because the first quote tag listed you so i assumed the whole post was to you because it didnt say "Cmat posted", etc.
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#116DarkContractorPosted 4/28/2013 2:47:26 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #112
From: DarkContractor | #109
From: OrangeWizard | #106
I'm going to act like a broken record player.


Okay


So your grand, argument-closing rebuttal is "You're acting like a broken record"?



Well you're saying things I've already rebutted, so why waste my time? I'm not as pride-stricken as you are, so I don't need an elegant response.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#117OrangeWizardPosted 4/28/2013 5:03:26 PM
From: DarkContractor | #116
Well you're saying things I've already rebutted


And I've refuted those rebuttals
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#118DarkContractorPosted 4/28/2013 6:01:33 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #117
From: DarkContractor | #116
Well you're saying things I've already rebutted


And I've refuted those rebuttals


No you didn't. You just repeated those things I rebutted.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#119C_MatPosted 4/28/2013 6:07:44 PM
DC, are you gonna respond to me? Only asking since you've responded to others.
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#120DarkContractorPosted 4/28/2013 6:28:59 PM

Nope, you're just wrong. Arbitrary would indicate that basing morality on God is as meaningful on basing morality on Star Wars, or personal feelings, or a pancake. One day when you meet God, you are free to explain to Him why you think He's an arbitrary basis for morality or equal to those things. Until then, I'm done going back and forth on this point with you.


Nice cop out.

"Morals are not abstract. God placed mankind underneath a moral law. It is an objective truth that there are moral values and duties we have to follow or else face the consequences in the afterlife. Whether you disagree with those moral values and duties has no bearing on their existence."

Burden of proof. And even if it were true, in the theistic universe this just means your bottom up for morality is 'fear of punishment'. How does God pick out the morals?

Wait, you ask me to make sense of suffering, then when I do, you respond "suffering is suffering" as if what you asked me to do is impossible. Make up your mind what you want.


Well, I feel like you're just coming up with these explanations because there is suffering. I want you to come up with explanations that you have real evidence for, empirical, philosophically, or Scripturally.

That's not even a response to what I said. Nothing in this conversation has been related to the severity of punishment, we've been talking about whether God has the right to distribute judgment. Now you're trying to change the subject and say, "well, I'd be OK with one kind of judgment but not another kind." You just totally undermined your whole argument.


Actually, I was very specific on what I had a problem with. Burning people in Hell, making people eat poop, Judges, Exodus 32, etc.

Similarly, when you say that it's only OK to knock down my Jenga tower as long as it's not sentient, I can also ask "Why's that?" So why's that?


EXACTLY it only took 423983098 walls of texts for you to figure that out

"And you still have not plainly answered the question, so I'll give you one more chance."

wuts a jenga tower

"Saying that if you have the ability to rule over someone, you therefore have the right to do so.

Which is not the argument I'm making about God."

the only difference between might makes right and yours is you think God being the creator enables him to dictatorship (which is a form of special pleading and also your arbitrary bottom up for morality)



"If God didn't do the best job possible creating a tree, does that mean a tree is not a tree, or that a tree doesn't exist?"

Once again, morality is not something 'created'. It deals with what something ought to be. THIS IS LIKE THE 3RD IVE EXPLAINED THIS LOLOL

"I asked for a contrast. This is a long list of comparisons. Do you not know the difference?"

Wait you want a difference? I see where you're going with this, Stalin and Hitlier are humans, which means your bottom up for morality is now an ad hominem! Good job!

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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya