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Atheists: God does not care if you believe in Him

#1C_MatPosted 5/1/2013 10:54:04 AM
The God of Christianity, anyway. I've mentioned this a few times on the board when people seem confused why they ask a deity to reveal itself to them and get no response. "If God is real, why doesn't He make it more obvious?" they ask.

You're assuming that God's plan is to make you believe in Him. What He actually wants to do is bring you into a saving relationship with Him, something several steps further than belief in His existence. Other than that, I doubt whether God really cares if you believe in Him or not. According to the Bible, even demons believe that God exists, that Jesus died on a cross and was raised from the dead, and they're obviously not saved.

For example, even if God answered your request and made it clear to you that there's a supernatural deity or realm you can't see, is there any indication that this new knowledge would have made you a want to become a Christian, or give you a love and appreciation for Jesus/the Cross?

Most likely, you would stop being a naturalist but come no closer to being a Christian. Remember that from Christianity's perspective, atheism is just one false belief among Mormonism, Bhuddism, Islam and countless other religions. To me, there's a small chance you would jump to the correct religion just because you've ruled out atheism.
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#2De EvolutionPosted 5/1/2013 11:25:20 AM(edited)
C_Mat posted...
The God of Christianity, anyway. I've mentioned this a few times on the board when people seem confused why they ask a deity to reveal itself to them and get no response. "If God is real, why doesn't He make it more obvious?" they ask.

You're assuming that God's plan is to make you believe in Him. What He actually wants to do is bring you into a saving relationship with Him, something several steps further than belief in His existence. Other than that, I doubt whether God really cares if you believe in Him or not. According to the Bible, even demons believe that God exists, that Jesus died on a cross and was raised from the dead, and they're obviously not saved.


You speak for God now? You seem to know the details of his "plan" and what he does and doesn't want. How long have you been the spokesman for God? And if he wants to save people he should probably reveal himself. If I dial 911 because I'm in an emergency, police and paramedics can't save me if they're hiding from me and won't even come to my location.

For example, even if God answered your request and made it clear to you that there's a supernatural deity or realm you can't see, is there any indication that this new knowledge would have made you a want to become a Christian, or give you a love and appreciation for Jesus/the Cross?


Uhm yeah. That's how the monotheistic religions f***ing works. People notice coincidences, or one of their prayers or hopes is actualized, or they (think) they see a miracle, and they attribute it to a God. They then start worshipping, loving and appreciating that God. You just described the conversion process.

The issue is that the evidence people are basing their conversions on are extremely weak, highly subjective, and and are full of flawed reasoning.

Most likely, you would stop being a naturalist but come no closer to being a Christian. Remember that from Christianity's perspective, atheism is just one false belief among Mormonism, Bhuddism, Islam and countless other religions.


Are you suggesting God is unable to show people not only that He exists, but that Christianity is the proper path? Seems like an indifferent douchebag then. Not very merciful, caring, or forgiving if you ask me. "Yeah I could help guide the people I created and love and save them from eternal damnation... Nah f*** em".

To me, there's a small chance you would jump to the correct religion just because you've ruled out atheism.


Correct
Religion

Choose one.

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Nonbelievers are not anti-religious, they are anti-fraud and anti-deception.
#3kozlo100Posted 5/1/2013 11:27:16 AM
I get where you're coming from, and that simple belief is not the goal. The problem is that, as you say, a saving relationship with him is several steps further down the road. That first step still has to be taken. I cannot have a relationship of any kind with someone I don't believe exists.

Now, if God actually does exist, and he has some better way of getting me to take those steps than communicating with me directly, that's fine. I'm content to wait for my road to Damascus moment, or whichever other thing.

However, until that first step is taken, I still have to do the best I can with what I have, and for me that leads to the conclusion that the god of Christianity most likely doesn't exist. If God doesn't care to move me off that position right this moment, then I'll just stay here unless and until I find my own reason to move.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#4ThuggernautzPosted 5/1/2013 11:30:38 AM
Christians: The Universe doesn't care if you choose to plug a supernatural macguffin into the gaps. Completely indifferent. Even the most devout can and do die of cancer, random deaths etc. If a Wolf-Rayet star anywhere in our cluster decides to give off a Gamma Ray Burst, humanity will be snuffed out in an instant, no matter how devout they are or how much they repeat Jesus' name.

Oh, and atheists don't care if you want to speak on God's behalf and say he doesn't care. Because we don't believe in your God, or any other Gods.
#5hamsandwich3141Posted 5/1/2013 11:40:42 AM
If belief is necessary but not sufficient, then God does indeed care if I believe in him. He just happens to care about other things more. Kind of a misleading topic title.
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#6JonWood007Posted 5/1/2013 11:55:01 AM
Okay, how about this, how can you have a relationship with something you don't believe exists? Demonstrating existence the first step. From there, you have a relationship. And how do you have a relationship with God? You pray I guess, but in my experience, God seemed awfully silent when I prayed to him at times, and the times I thought he answered seemed kind of out of touch with reality, so I tend to discount such experiences. It's kinda like he wasn't even there. Relationships are supposed to work two ways. When you feel like you're talking to...well...nothing, then that's not much of a relationship.

And even if we don't jump to Christianity from demonstrating belief, so what? Isn't a so called relationship with God a work in progress? Christians often talk about sin issues in their life, how they often take years to overcome, and even the best of them have them.

And yeah, the thing about Christianity is it's full of plot holes, so...yeah, that's why people often discount it. Its message is often times out of touch with reality known through empiricism.
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#7Faust_8Posted 5/1/2013 12:42:53 PM
kozlo100 posted...
I get where you're coming from, and that simple belief is not the goal. The problem is that, as you say, a saving relationship with him is several steps further down the road. That first step still has to be taken. I cannot have a relationship of any kind with someone I don't believe exists.


This.

My first thought was literally "that's like saying I don't care about meeting or contacting [insert name here] in any way but I want us to be friends."

You can't have a relationship with a person that you don't know of anymore than you can with a being you honestly think isn't even there.
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You are the universe
Expressing itself as a human, for a little while
#8Polish_CrusaderPosted 5/1/2013 1:23:06 PM
I kinda hinted at this fact in various topics over the years. CMat just outright stated it in a topic. He is absolutely correct.

Besides the fact that various non believers on here (moorish idol, etc.) have outright told me straight up they would doubt even if they saw jesus or some visual miracle because they would question if they were hallucinating- which makes absolutely no sense. Perfectly sane people do not hallucinate for no reason. If you have not hallucinated in the past, then you are not going to all of a sudden start without some external stimuli going in your body (drugs, etc.).

To sum it up, the TC is 95% correct. You WILL NOT become a christian without faith first. Even if you see first. The bible predicts this many times.
#9Faust_8Posted 5/1/2013 3:50:46 PM(edited)
So...the people that DO hallucinate...you realize that there was a time when they didn't, right?

Unless you're going to posit that if you're going to hallucinate it starts immediately after birth, there is always a point when someone starts hallucinating.

Schizophrenia, for example, doesn't actually rear its ugly head until young adulthood. So some 15-25 year old could be perfectly normal to all observers and then suddenly, delusions and hallucinations just start appearing one day.

Mental health is not an exact science like you make it out to be. There is a first time for everything. Hell, even totally sane people can see things that aren't there--or do you think ghosts are real, or that every single one who thinks otherwise is a liar? Given the proper context and bias, people can see things that don't exist despite perfect mental health.
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You are the universe
Expressing itself as a human, for a little while
#10DeadPresidents2Posted 5/1/2013 5:26:20 PM
I feel like the Christian God gets a really raw deal. Everyone's always, "If you're real, show yourself!", but I mean, if you made mankind, would YOU want to take credit for it?
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