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the holy fire miracle

#31Faust_8Posted 5/6/2013 8:45:54 AM
DarkContractor posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
From: JonWood007 | #011
Ah, so you admit it?


I had you on ignore, so I wasn't replying to you.

I un-ignored you to squash the post that Magyar quoted, in case it was directed at me.

In response to that, you don't see me believing in any modern day miracles, so, as usual, you continue to make claims with no basis.


How come you don't believe in modern miracles?


My guess is it's a lot easier, since we can't examine miracles from thousands of years ago as well as we could examine any claimed miracle today.
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#32OrangeWizardPosted 5/7/2013 9:36:46 PM
From: DarkContractor | #025
How come you don't believe in modern miracles?


Why should I?
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#33JonWood007Posted 5/7/2013 9:44:34 PM
Do you know how messed up it sounds to not believe in modern day miracles, but to accept supposed miracles from a prescientific age? IMO, the lack of miracles in the 21st century implies that many of the old miracles may have been misinterpreted or exaggerated or made up. Why would God reveal himself in an age in which there were no scientific standards to measure such miracles, yet he won't reveal himself today when we could easily prove his miracles if they were indeed miracles? God could just go take the james Randi challenge and prove himself.
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#34Faust_8Posted 5/7/2013 11:07:57 PM
Hence my whole "it's a lot easier for him to justify" argument.

It's easier for him if all the claimed miracles are locked away in the past and he doesn't have to explain the lack of them today.
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You are the universe
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#35GuideToTheDarkPosted 5/7/2013 11:22:21 PM
At anyrate, id rather be wrong about science than be wrong about God. God made science. I know that is hard for you to comprehend. And you will say some slick cliche statement about it trying to make me look dumb/bad. But I just dont care. I know where im going after i die. I know Jesus loves me and he loves you too. Have you ever thought about asking jesus into your heart? Jesus performs miracles you know.

The only cliche statement I see is you completely avoiding having to think about anything I said.
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#36Chaos ScadePosted 5/9/2013 2:28:05 AM
From: _pigzigaccount5 | #001
do you think its real or does the priest pull a lighter out of somewhere?
i think it could be real


The Israeli police search the patriarch before he goes into the Tomb of Christ to make sure that he doesn't have any fire-starting equipment on him.

From: OrangeWizard | #007
" every year the day before Orthodox Easter, an unlit blue fire from a stone in the Church descends from the dome and ignites a candle held by the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem."

Can we see this original flame? No? Figures.


People report seeing the blue flame before the patriarch comes out all of the time. I was in Jerusalem for it this year and I have a candle here in my room that received the flame, but unfortunately the Israeli soldiers treated us very badly when we were waiting to be let down to get into the Sepulchre and wouldn't let us through even though we had been there for 17 hours. We tried to join the patriarch's entourage as he walked past, but everyone got the same idea as us and it started a massive brawl between the Greek/Palestinian clergy and the Israeli officers.

"Pilgrims let the flames touch their hands as the Holy Fire supposedly does not burn those who come in contact with it."

I couldn't see this in the video I found.


People have been known to bathe their beards in it without catching fire.

From: JonWood007 | #003




In 2005 in a live demonstration on Greek television, Michael Kalopoulos, author and historian of religion, dipped three candles in white phosphorus. The candles spontaneously ignited after approximately 20 minutes due to the self-ignition properties of white phosphorus when in contact with air. According to Kalopoulos' website:

If phosphorus is dissolved in an appropriate organic solvent, self-ignition is delayed until the solvent has almost completely evaporated. Repeated experiments showed that the ignition can be delayed for half an hour or more, depending on the density of the solution and the solvent employed.

Kalopoulos also points out that chemical reactions of this nature were well known in ancient times, quoting Strabo, who states "In Babylon there are two kinds of naphtha springs, a white and a black. The white naphtha is the one that ignites with fire." (Strabon Geographica 16.1.15.1-24) He further states that phosphorus was used by Chaldean magicians in the early fifth century BC, and by the ancient Greeks, in a way similar to its supposed use today by the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem.[15]


This doesn't explain the spontaneous igniting of pilgrims' candles as well with perfect timing, especially when they've owned their candles for days and not put white phosphorus anywhere near it (and since white phosphorus is a toxic substance, that much igniting in a crowded area would almost certain have led to some sort of accident in the 1300 years [at least] that this phenomenon has been occuring).

Either way, the thing that I've realised is that with all their resources and espionage skill, the Israeli government KNOWS whether or not this is real or fake. Either they know it's real and don't care about the implications that a genuine miracle being performed by God for the Christians has for them, or they know it's fake and continue to profit off the tourist revenue that it brings by helping perpetuate it. Either way, they end up looking bad.
#37Chaos ScadePosted 5/9/2013 2:34:01 AM
Also, there is a pillar immediately outside of the Sepulchre that has a massive crack in it and which, from what I saw and smelled of it, continually weeps myrrh. The origin of the crack, from what I've read, is that in the very late sixteenth century, the Armenian patriarch's followers locked the Orthodox patriarch out of the Sepulchre and tried to get the flame by themselves (which didn't work), and while the Orthodox patriarch outside the Sepulchre prayed, a bolt of lightning hit the pillar, causing the crack, and spat flames off which lit his candle.
#38OrangeWizardPosted 5/9/2013 2:37:33 AM
From: Chaos Scade | #030
People report


Anecdotal evidence.

People have been known


Anecdotal evidence.

This doesn't explain the spontaneous igniting of pilgrims' candles


Not shown in the video.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#39Chaos ScadePosted 5/9/2013 2:42:40 AM
From: OrangeWizard | #038
From: Chaos Scade | #030
People report


Anecdotal evidence.

People have been known


Anecdotal evidence.


I've seen videos of the latter (which I'm finding difficult to search for at the moment), and I've personally heard multiple independent testimonies of the former from people I know (which obviously isn't good enough here).

This doesn't explain the spontaneous igniting of pilgrims' candles


Not shown in the video.


I know a woman to whom it happened, and I also did see a video of an interview on a Greek TV show where a clip of it was shown which I'm trying to find at the moment (not the white phosphorus debunking video).
#40Wandering__HeroPosted 5/9/2013 2:47:37 AM
Modern Day miracles are the ones we can apply disgression to, as they are the ones we can test and verify with our own eyes. I dont think you would want us to stop questioning those, as it opens the backdoor for all kinds of crap.

I'm also all for testing, scrutinising and examining any "miracle" before us, because when we remove the fakes it will make the real miracles seem so much better.
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