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The falsifibility of your claims

#31JonWood007Posted 5/19/2013 11:25:32 PM
Julian_Caesar posted...
From: DarkContractor | #029
cognitive but nonmaterial control of the universe/creation of something.


How would He prove that the control was non-material? More importantly, how would you refrain from rationalizing away what you see as something other than miraculous? Just as many people did when Jesus actually walked the earth?


The same way scientists can tell other "universes" are acting upon our own....we can't see these universes, but we can see their effects. If God is doing anything, we should be able to observe it somehow. Instead, we have a god that somehow fits in perfectly with probability to the point that he's indistinguishable from a null hypothesis if we were going to do some sort of experiment to see if we can find this guy's "control" over us. And that means there's no reason to believe.

Also, hasnt it ever occured to you that maybe Jesus' story was exaggerated and he really wasn't all that?
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#32Moorish_IdolPosted 5/19/2013 11:50:41 PM
I think we can see the effects of God. The entire universe is the effect of God.
#33TheBlackCat13Posted 5/20/2013 3:45:15 AM
Moorish_Idol posted...
I think we can see the effects of God. The entire universe is the effect of God.


A better way to put the question is, "how would the universe, or anything in it, look different if there was a God compared to if there was no God".

And please don't just assert that a universe without God wouldn't exist, since that in itself is a non-falsifiable claim. It needs to be a differences we could actually observe, and we could never observe a non-universe since we wouldn't exist. Same for "humans wouldn't exist", since again such an observation would be impossible.
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#34Moorish_IdolPosted 5/20/2013 6:37:06 AM
TheBlackCat13 posted...
Moorish_Idol posted...
I think we can see the effects of God. The entire universe is the effect of God.


A better way to put the question is, "how would the universe, or anything in it, look different if there was a God compared to if there was no God".

And please don't just assert that a universe without God wouldn't exist, since that in itself is a non-falsifiable claim. It needs to be a differences we could actually observe, and we could never observe a non-universe since we wouldn't exist. Same for "humans wouldn't exist", since again such an observation would be impossible.

Well this is where the point of this topic comes in. I already believe the entire concept of god is an unfalsifiable philosophical deduction. If I deduce that god created the universe, the logical alternative is the lack of god means the lack of a creation event.

You can argue against my claims with philosophical discourse, since that's the area which the claims belong to; but I see no reason why testability needs to be a prerequisite for your question. We aren't dealing with a testable entity in the first place.
#35bratt100Posted 5/20/2013 7:50:38 AM
Polish_Crusader posted...
DarkContractor posted...
What would it take to convince you of another position?

I'm just curious.


-Its like asking me what would it take to convince me that gravity does not exist. I know jesus is real and i know he is God. I have seen his works and he has answered my prayers. You cannot unconvince someone of an obvious truth.


Nope.
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#36Julian_CaesarPosted 5/20/2013 8:19:12 AM
From: JonWood007 | #031
The same way scientists can tell other "universes" are acting upon our own....we can't see these universes, but we can see their effects.


You mean like someone raising another person from the dead, right? That would surely count as an "effect."

And no, those by definition are not "other universes." The quality of "being able to interact with our physical matter" means that whatever they're seeing follows the same physical rules. Thus God interacting with our universe would not look anything like that, since He doesn't follow our universe's rules.
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#37JonWood007Posted 5/20/2013 8:41:29 AM(edited)
ou mean like someone raising another person from the dead, right? That would surely count as an "effect."


If you could ACTUALLY substantiate such claims with mountains of evidence, then yes, that would show SOMETHING acting upon our universe that could be caused God. The problem with the gospel accounts is they're not reliable nor substantiated with proper evidence.

And no, those by definition are not "other universes." The quality of "being able to interact with our physical matter" means that whatever they're seeing follows the same physical rules. Thus God interacting with our universe would not look anything like that, since He doesn't follow our universe's rules.


Once again, I'm not interested in getting in a semantics debate about this.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/37994601

Let the scientists work out the semantics until then.

ALso, God would have to act in some sort of noticeable, detectable way, if we are to know of his presence. If he acts in ways we can't see or detect in any way, from our perspective, that's as good as saying that he doesn't act. God acting has become an unnecessary and superfluous assumption that we can and probably should eliminate as per occam's razor. With no evidence, there's no reason to assume such a thing exists.
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#38Moorish_IdolPosted 5/20/2013 10:58:19 AM
A lot of people do feel that their God interacts with them on a regular basis. Should they too eliminate that from their lives?
#39JonWood007Posted 5/20/2013 11:16:26 AM
Depends how substantial it is. No offense but some peoples' claims to interaction are VERY weak. If you actually have something substantial to the point that the reasonable conclusion is God, then fine, but if God's actions mirror the supposed null hypothesis in every way where you literally can't tell existence from nonexistence....yeah, that's not a good reason to believe, and you're just making your worldview more complicated for no good reason. That's a major reason I deconverted, I realized that the extra complexity was causing unnecessary theological problems in my lives, and that the world makes a lot more sense without God.
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#40Julian_CaesarPosted 5/20/2013 3:15:59 PM
From: JonWood007 | #037
If you could ACTUALLY substantiate such claims with mountains of evidence, then yes, that would show SOMETHING acting upon our universe that could be caused God. The problem with the gospel accounts is they're not reliable nor substantiated with proper evidence.


Please tell me how it would be possible to substantiate a claim that Jesus, the son of a construction worker in Detroit, raised a man from the dead in Ann Arbor after he had been dead for several days.
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