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After the reign of Pope Francis, Luis Antonio Tagle must become Pope.

#1SepucherPosted 5/11/2013 1:41:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iqLFA0YqJk

He has the potential to unite and excite the world the same way Barack Obama did for the United States and the World in 2008 with his election. This man is a rockstar yet an intellectual. He reaches out globally yet has strong ties with the Church. He is kind yet stern when necessary.

He wasn't ready to be Pope yet. However, give it the 6+ years of Francis's reign and he will be ready come resignation or resurrection.
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Living is in the way we die
#2darkmaian23Posted 5/11/2013 2:50:14 PM
The problem with the Catholic church isn't with the Pope or any other individual in the leadership. The problem is the outdated dogma the church pushes and its complete failure as an institution to bring members guilty of heinous crimes to justice. In no particular order:

1. While it is noble in a sense to try and forgive even the most terrible criminals, the Church's unwillingness to turn over abusive priests to law enforcement and aid in the investigation of such crimes is terrible.

2. The role that non-abusing priests have played in covering up abuse--including, in some cases, swearing victims to secrecy--is disgusting. The priests involved should be ex-communicated and a public apology should given immediately.

3. The Church's approach to marriage and sexuality needs to change. Priests and nuns should be given the opportunity to marry if they so chose. Abstinence-only birth control teachings have led to the spread of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and great suffering in the developing world.

4. Persecution of homosexuals should end. If they want to keep teaching that God is against it, fine. But they need to add love and common-sense to what they do and end their backwards, inhumane practices.
#3IndoriPosted 5/11/2013 3:34:49 PM
darkmaian23 posted...
1. While it is noble in a sense to try and forgive even the most terrible criminals, the Church's unwillingness to turn over abusive priests to law enforcement and aid in the investigation of such crimes is terrible.

You earlier stated that the problem was not with individuals, yet you cite the actions of individuals here.

darkmaian23 posted...
2. The role that non-abusing priests have played in covering up abuse--including, in some cases, swearing victims to secrecy--is disgusting. The priests involved should be ex-communicated and a public apology should given immediately.

Aside from the numerous public apologies already issued, sexual abuse is not an excommunicable offense. Many accused priests have been forced to resign or have been defrocked.

darkmaian23 posted...
3. The Church's approach to marriage and sexuality needs to change. Priests and nuns should be given the opportunity to marry if they so chose. Abstinence-only birth control teachings have led to the spread of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and great suffering in the developing world.

I think your first claim clashes with the idea of #4, your second claim fails to acknowledge that religious take voluntary vows, and your third claim is unsupported. I could just as easily make the case that the prevalence of birth control has led to increased sexual promiscuity, resulting in the spread of diseases, unwanted pregnancies, and great suffering in the developing world.

darkmaian23 posted...
4. Persecution of homosexuals should end. If they want to keep teaching that God is against it, fine. But they need to add love and common-sense to what they do and end their backwards, inhumane practices.

And what practices are these?
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Me? I'm the king of the twentieth century.
I'm the bogeyman. The villain.
#4darkmaian23Posted 5/11/2013 4:49:37 PM
It seems I should have woken up a bit more before posting. I intended to make the case that the Church and its response to social and humanitarian issues are inadequate and that a brand new Pope (likely) won't do anything to change these problems. My entire post was full of logic and grammar errors; I apologize for that.

On the subject of birth control, I would be interested to know how you would justify opposing the use of condoms in Africa, where there are so many people with HIV.
#5IndoriPosted 5/11/2013 4:58:31 PM
darkmaian23 posted...
It seems I should have woken up a bit more before posting. I intended to make the case that the Church and its response to social and humanitarian issues are inadequate and that a brand new Pope (likely) won't do anything to change these problems. My entire post was full of logic and grammar errors; I apologize for that.

:)

darkmaian23 posted...
On the subject of birth control, I would be interested to know how you would justify opposing the use of condoms in Africa, where there are so many people with HIV.

What you want is a justification on the material side, which you won't get. Remember that the Church looks at this issue from more perspectives than just that of disease prevention. Her number one priority is the salvation of souls. Supporting self-control and abstinence programs accomplishes that directly (preventing individual sins) and indirectly (changing a culture of sin - see my response about birth control above). Supporting the use of condoms would (a) be counter-intuitive to that mission and (b) subvert the Church's teaching and moral authority.
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Me? I'm the king of the twentieth century.
I'm the bogeyman. The villain.
#6darkmaian23Posted 5/11/2013 5:06:58 PM
Indori posted...

What you want is a justification on the material side, which you won't get. Remember that the Church looks at this issue from more perspectives than just that of disease prevention. Her number one priority is the salvation of souls. Supporting self-control and abstinence programs accomplishes that directly (preventing individual sins) and indirectly (changing a culture of sin - see my response about birth control above). Supporting the use of condoms would (a) be counter-intuitive to that mission and (b) subvert the Church's teaching and moral authority.


The "material side", as you call it, consists of this world and the people in it. Obviously any church is mostly considered with spiritual rather worldly matters, but is it too much to ask for both? Imagine I was a Catholic man with HIV married to a Catholic woman. Are we supposed to never have sex? Or do they actually think that if a Catholic husband and wife have sex, no diseases can be transferred because it is a Godly marriage (I heard that one in a Baptist church growing up)?

I trust you can see where I am coming from. It's all well and good to try and save souls through proper moral teachings, but does that really need to come with a very human cost?
#7GuideToTheDarkPosted 5/11/2013 6:29:02 PM
Indori, what do you think of how the child abuse scandal was handled?
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Before all else you must build muscle. Then you must become hero to children everywhere.
#8IndoriPosted 5/11/2013 8:08:47 PM
darkmaian23 posted...
The "material side", as you call it, consists of this world and the people in it. Obviously any church is mostly considered with spiritual rather worldly matters, but is it too much to ask for both? Imagine I was a Catholic man with HIV married to a Catholic woman. Are we supposed to never have sex? Or do they actually think that if a Catholic husband and wife have sex, no diseases can be transferred because it is a Godly marriage (I heard that one in a Baptist church growing up)?

I trust you can see where I am coming from. It's all well and good to try and save souls through proper moral teachings, but does that really need to come with a very human cost?

You're right, the Church needs to be (and is) concerned with worldly matters also. Otherwise it wouldn't be the single largest charitable organization in the world. But the "human cost" can be felt on the spiritual side as well. If eternity is up for grabs, it can't be sacrificed.

Still, I feel that the Church's position on this is responsible on the material side as well. I think it's reasonable to say that, even if you support the use of condoms, it would be better if people in Africa and around the world were in committed, monogamous relationships or perpetually celibate (in light of the HIV issue). Promiscuous sex is part of the problem, is it not? Now, condom use may help limit transmission, but it furthers the cultural idea that promiscuous sex is safe, alright, and all in all fine. The Church is pushing against that. It's pushing against the culture (our culture) that has made the HIV issue what it is.

GuideToTheDark posted...
Indori, what do you think of how the child abuse scandal was handled?

It think it was handled horribly. Now much better.
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Me? I'm the king of the twentieth century.
I'm the bogeyman. The villain.
#9DarkContractorPosted 5/11/2013 8:48:43 PM
Still, I feel that the Church's position on this is responsible on the material side as well. I think it's reasonable to say that, even if you support the use of condoms, it would be better if people in Africa and around the world were in committed, monogamous relationships or perpetually celibate (in light of the HIV issue). Promiscuous sex is part of the problem, is it not? Now, condom use may help limit transmission, but it furthers the cultural idea that promiscuous sex is safe, alright, and all in all fine. The Church is pushing against that. It's pushing against the culture (our culture) that has made the HIV issue what it is.


Safe sex doesn't suddenly become a nonissue after marriage. If Catholicism wants to hold the view that contraception and what not is immoral, that's fine. But when they go and actively tell people to drop the condoms it's a sin and it leads to an AIDs epidemic, well they need to actually prove that the concept of the salvation of a soul is a real thing.
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"If God exists why did I stub my toe this morning?" - Me "Well If God doesnt exist how do we bacon CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" - TheRealJiraiya
#10IndoriPosted 5/11/2013 8:53:46 PM
DarkContractor posted...
Safe sex doesn't suddenly become a nonissue after marriage. If Catholicism wants to hold the view that contraception and what not is immoral, that's fine. But when they go and actively tell people to drop the condoms it's a sin and it leads to an AIDs epidemic, well they need to actually prove that the concept of the salvation of a soul is a real thing.

And everyone else needs to prove that condoms are going to stop the AIDS epidemic if they're going to endanger souls.
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Me? I'm the king of the twentieth century.
I'm the bogeyman. The villain.