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Bible interpretation is not open to interpretation

#71AdmiralBisonPosted 5/17/2013 1:00:48 AM
so after all this it looks like the Christian bible is subject to interpretation hence the thousands of denominations.
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If delusions and Illusions are an en-escapable part of our entire lives, why not just pick a positive one?
#72Cedar_XaranaPosted 5/17/2013 5:01:07 AM
Lmfao @ the TC.
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#73SFAkumaPosted 5/17/2013 6:54:13 AM
There are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations. There are over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Old Church Slavic, Gothic, Ge'ez, Coptic, and Armenian. The dates of these manuscripts range from c. 125 (the Rylands Library Papyrus P52; the oldest fragments of the Gospel of John) to the introduction of printing in Germany in the 15th century. The vast majority of these manuscripts date after the 10th century. There are an estimated 400,000 variations among all these manuscripts which is more than there are words in the New Testament.
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#74hunter_gohanPosted 5/17/2013 5:14:18 PM
C_Mat posted...
There is no guilt or more effort in a Christian's life.


So again contradicting what you just claimed.

"If you want to know whether your salvation is genuine, you ask yourself whether you feel sorrowful for your sins(IoW guilt), whether you're sinning less this year than you were a year ago, and whether giving into sin is actually a battle at all.(effort)"

Nor did I pretend Christian's become perfect. The 180 is what they're striving for: pleasing God, or pleasing themselves.


Just retract what you originally said instead of trying to pretend:

"Repenting means to do a 180 on your sinful behavior; it does not mean you repent for being sexually immoral, then continue in your sexual immorality. That would mean you obviously never truly repented."

is equal to what I just quoted. No where in there are you "striving" for a 180, it's just what you do when you repent. And when you've done this 180 for all your sins, what's left instead of being perfect?

This is the 180.


Right because if you go from no parents to parents, then that's an actual opposite. Driving north at 60mph then continuing to drive north at 30mph is not a 180.

If Barack Obama suddenly claimed he was Scottish, but had no Scottish heritage or bloodline, no Scottish residence, or any Scottish features whatsoever, are we supposed to conclude that he's still Scottish based on his claim?


That would be just as fallacious as discounting someone who believes Jesus Christ is god as a Christian because they sin, which the bible states every single person will do.

Let's see: if this book decides what an atheist is, how to become an atheist, what it means to be an atheist, and gives the original definition of atheism; then yep, your book is free to include a chapter on the distinguishing characteristics of an atheist.


Why are Christians never, ever consistent with this? When it benefits them, they're the most populous religion in the world. When it benefits them, 99% of those aren't True(TM) Christians and are discounted. We have something which defines the majority of Christians. It's called the Nicene Creed. You don't get to discount people who believe Jesus is God as Christians simply because you don't like how they act. Funny thing is, there are other denominations which would probably say the same about you. If Catholicism had it's way no one but them would be considered Christian probably, yet there are also many Protestants who insist the Catholics aren't actually Christian.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#75hunter_gohanPosted 5/17/2013 5:15:11 PM
lol yes, yes I can. I have watched the Avengers multiple times and not had lustful thoughts about Scarlett Johansson. Do you know the definition of lust? Noticing whether someone is attractive is not lust.


Yes and if you knew the thoughts in my head wrt to Scarlett Johannson in skin tight leather you wouldn't have asked that. The point is, the bible says no one is free of sin save Jesus. Which directly contradicts what I first took umbrage with.

But if you think you're special enough to deserve heaven without Jesus' sacrifice, that's your choice.


You're the one who said I deserve exactly what he got, yet somehow I'll be receiving a much worse and longer punishment.

Because of Jesus' deity, He was able to overcome hell and rise from the grave. When you're in hell, you're free to do your best to escape. So far, I don't know of anyone else who got themselves out. Looks like you'll have an eternity to figure it out, though.


Oh ok so basically "Everyone in the USSR deserves what Stalin got. If you didn't have the power to seize that though, then it's your own fault."

JonWood007 posted...
Whoops sorry, must've been stick in my clipboard.


lol, I've done the same before :p

C_Mat posted...
You can't just hop out and back into a conversation via other people's posts whenever you feel like it and expect me to take you seriously.


So what exactly, you want him to repeat something already said that he agrees with? This is general forum stuff. If someone else already said what you were going to say, don't simply parrot the same points. If you have a new perspective that wasn't quite the same go on and show it which 99% of the time will probably be less(in quantity) than what you would've replied had someone else not already stated what you would have.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#76C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/20/2013 9:07:21 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
So again contradicting what you just claimed..


Where did I claim that Christians receive salvation based on effort or a guilty confidence?

"If you want to know whether your salvation is genuine, you ask yourself whether you feel sorrowful for your sins(IoW guilt), whether you're sinning less this year than you were a year ago, and whether giving into sin is actually a battle at all.(effort)"


Do you understand the difference how you get something, and the evidence that you already have it? This is exactly what I've been explaining to you all along. Re-read the sentence you quoted. The salvation came first, then the sorrow and effort came later as proofs of the salvation.

Just retract what you originally said instead of trying to pretend:

"Repenting means to do a 180 on your sinful behavior; it does not mean you repent for being sexually immoral, then continue in your sexual immorality. That would mean you obviously never truly repented."

is equal to what I just quoted. No where in there are you "striving" for a 180, it's just what you do when you repent. And when you've done this 180 for all your sins, what's left instead of being perfect?


Re-read the thing about parents since you didn't understand it the first time. I think it clears up this misconception you have about what a 180 means.

Right because if you go from no parents to parents, then that's an actual opposite. Driving north at 60mph then continuing to drive north at 30mph is not a 180.


Sorry that I have confused you. The example about being adopted was meant to explain the 180-difference in how a Christian and a non-Christian relate to sin. I didn't think you would take the 180 thing so literally, but again, I apologize for the confusion. Did you understand the "parable" about adoption?

That would be just as fallacious as discounting someone who believes Jesus Christ is god as a Christian because they sin, which the bible states every single person will do.

Just answer the question.

Why are Christians never, ever consistent with this? When it benefits them, they're the most populous religion in the world. When it benefits them, 99% of those aren't True(TM) Christians and are discounted. We have something which defines the majority of Christians. It's called the Nicene Creed. You don't get to discount people who believe Jesus is God as Christians simply because you don't like how they act. Funny thing is, there are other denominations which would probably say the same about you. If Catholicism had it's way no one but them would be considered Christian probably, yet there are also many Protestants who insist the Catholics aren't actually Christian.

Just answer the question.
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk
#77C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/20/2013 9:07:33 PM
Yes and if you knew the thoughts in my head wrt to Scarlett Johannson in skin tight leather you wouldn't have asked that. The point is, the bible says no one is free of sin save Jesus. Which directly contradicts what I first took umbrage with.


As long as any Christian is on earth, he will deal with temptation to sin. Temptation itself is not a sin at all. It's only when you act on the temptation. That's why I can notice Scarlett Johannson in the Avengers, find her attractive but not think on sexual thoughts about her, and I've done nothing wrong in God's eyes.

I am free of the eternal consequences of sin. I'm not free of the temptation of sin. Someday I will be, but not right at the moment. I'm not perfect by any means, but I don't use God's forgiveness as an excuse to sin whenever I want. Because I love God, and because I know that God sent His Son to die for the sins that separated me from Him, I have no desire to return to them. It would be like taking a shower and then jumping headfirst into a mud puddle. Now that I'm "clean," I'm going to make every effort to stay as clean as possible, it would be stupid for me to intentionally roll around in filth now that I know how great it feels to be clean.

Romans 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? ...For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin...For the death that He died, He died to sin once and for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Do not present yourselves to God as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

You're the one who said I deserve exactly what he got, yet somehow I'll be receiving a much worse and longer punishment.


I explain this below:

Oh ok so basically "Everyone in the USSR deserves what Stalin got. If you didn't have the power to seize that though, then it's your own fault."


That is not an equal comparison to what I said at all. Try again.
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk
#78hunter_gohanPosted 5/21/2013 5:19:07 PM(edited)
C_Mat posted...
Sorry that I have confused you. The example about being adopted was meant to explain the 180-difference in how a Christian and a non-Christian relate to sin. I didn't think you would take the 180 thing so literally, but again, I apologize for the confusion. Did you understand the "parable" about adoption?


Eh alright yeah it seems I am. Aye, if you love someone you'll at least try to follow their rules even if you mess up every now and then so long as you don't just intentionally throw them away and not even try to listen to em.

Just answer the question.


Thought that was obvious when I stated just as fallacious. No, a simple claim doesn't make someone Scottish.

Just answer the question.


There was no question in the quote that was replying to....?

As long as any Christian is on earth, he will deal with temptation to sin. Temptation itself is not a sin at all. It's only when you act on the temptation.


Thoughts aren't actions though. Anyway this was just stemming from me taking the 180 to literally.

That is not an equal comparison to what I said at all. Try again.


It's perfectly equal. Well maybe expect the it's your fault part at the end, and the difficulty of the task.

Because of Jesus' deity, He was able to overcome hell and rise from the grave. When you're in hell, you're free to do your best to escape. So far, I don't know of anyone else who got themselves out. Looks like you'll have an eternity to figure it out, though.

Because of Stalin's might, he was able to overcome the trials forced on the proletariat by the fascists and capitalists and rise against the bourgeoisie. When you're being exploited by those in power, you're free to do your best to rise and escape. Stalin will make sure you have plenty of time in a Siberian gulag to figure it out.
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The food that stands on his [Odin's] table he gives to two wolves of his called Geri and Freki. He himself needs no food; wine is for him both drink and meat.
#79C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/24/2013 5:08:17 PM
hunter_gohan posted...
Eh alright yeah it seems I am. Aye, if you love someone you'll at least try to follow their rules even if you mess up every now and then so long as you don't just intentionally throw them away and not even try to listen to em.


Yeah, and that's basically the way a Christian relates to God's rules. It's not supposed to be out of guilt or fear of punishment, but out of love and gratitude.

Thought that was obvious when I stated just as fallacious. No, a simple claim doesn't make someone Scottish.


Exactly, and a simple claim doesn't make someone Christian. That's what I was getting at.

There was no question in the quote that was replying to....?


Sorry. I meant, "respond to what I said." I'll repost it:

Let's see: if this book decides what an atheist is, how to become an atheist, what it means to be an atheist, and gives the original definition of atheism; then yep, your book is free to include a chapter on the distinguishing characteristics of an atheist.

You responded complaining about how Christians are inconsistent with "this," which came across as pretty whiny and didn't refute anything I said. Ready to admit that Christians have a right to use "No True Scotsman" now?

Thoughts aren't actions though. Anyway this was just stemming from me taking the 180 to literally.


And you're equating temptations with thoughts, which is not what I'm doing and there are some subtle differences between the two. I think that's adding to the confusion.

It's perfectly equal. Well maybe expect the it's your fault part at the end, and the difficulty of the task.
Because of Jesus' deity, He was able to overcome hell and rise from the grave. When you're in hell, you're free to do your best to escape. So far, I don't know of anyone else who got themselves out. Looks like you'll have an eternity to figure it out, though.
Because of Stalin's might, he was able to overcome the trials forced on the proletariat by the fascists and capitalists and rise against the bourgeoisie. When you're being exploited by those in power, you're free to do your best to rise and escape. Stalin will make sure you have plenty of time in a Siberian gulag to figure it out.


Fine, Just because you can draw a (far-reaching) comparison to Stalin does not automatically make God a dictator. As we've established (in another topic maybe?) before, you're comparison of Hitler to God also indicates that queen ants are dictators. Second, your response doesn't really make any sense in regard to what I originally said, but oh well.
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk
#80C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/29/2013 10:10:50 PM
Just wanted to add, I'm actually pretty surprised at the direction this topic went. I thought most of the atheists here were former Christians and Catholics who left the faith, but obviously- and I don't mean this condescendingly- you guys never even understood the basic tenants of the Gospel. Based on what you guys think Christianity is, no wonder you wanted out.
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http://youtu.be/gmnSnNC8UJk