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It seems illogical to me to criticize any religion's god based on its morality

#1C_MatPosted 5/29/2013 10:38:47 PM
God, if He/it exists, could exercise the ability to set objective* moral laws of the universe. If His intention is for the human race to flourish, He could order the universe in such a way that following these laws produces good results for human flourishing. He could judge humans by these laws.

*Here is what I mean by objective: right or wrong regardless of human opinion. This means, for example, it is wrong to walk into a movie theater and kill 12 people regardless of anybody's personal opinion on the matter. Wrong is still wrong, even if everybody's wrong. This is in contrast to subjective morality, which says something is right or wrong based on human opinion; if nobody thinks an action is wrong, nothing else makes it wrong.

Back to the point, it seems illogical to criticize any deity on the basis of its morality. If I think killing people is OK and the Creator of the Universe says it's wrong, that means it's wrong. If I think killing people is wrong and the Creator of the Universe says it's OK, that means it's OK. The Creator of the Universe has the final say in the matter, regardless of my own perspective. Even if I disagree, the only way I can say God is wrong is by another standard of morality which is proven to be superior. Otherwise, it's just one human's opinion vs the Creator of the Universe.

As a Christian, I think the Muslim deity Allah has bad morals, but the only reason that opinion about Allah is logically defensible is if I have a superior provider for morality. I would never say to a Muslim, "You should change your religion because it teaches incorrect morality." That's circular logic; if Islam is true, it has the correct morality- and if Islam is false, it's morality is also likely incorrect. I can't say, "Allah is a false god because He teaches false morality." I first have to disprove Allah's existence, or prove another deity's existence, before I can say anything at all about Allah's morality.

For an atheist, I don't see how you could logically make any claims or criticisms about a deity's moral code without first having (1) proof the deity does not exist, or (2) proof of a superior moral standard.
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#2Julian_CaesarPosted 5/29/2013 10:46:12 PM
From: C_Mat | #001
I first have to disprove Allah's existence, or prove another deity's existence, before I can say anything at all about Allah's morality.


Dangerous ground. How exactly would you go about proving that Allah didn't exist, or that the Christian God does exist?
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#3OrangeWizardPosted 5/29/2013 10:48:29 PM
I was looking around for your footnote at the bottom of your post... but you put in the completely wrong spot.
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#4OrangeWizardPosted 5/29/2013 10:50:33 PM
From: Julian_Caesar | #002
How exactly would you go about proving that Allah didn't exist, or that the Christian God does exist?


Doesn't matter. Those are his only available options, since disproving him by arguing about Allah's morality is illogical.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#5HardcoreRPGPosted 5/29/2013 10:53:25 PM
From: C_Mat | #001
God, if He/it exists, could exercise the ability to set objective* moral laws of the universe.


Objective means independent of minds. Morality cannot be objective and mind based.

For an atheist, I don't see how you could logically make any claims or criticisms about a deity's moral code without first having (1) proof the deity does not exist, or (2) proof of a superior moral standard.


I can criticize characters I believe to fake or don't believe to be real. We do that in literature and films and video games all the time.

The second is a fair requirement.
#6C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/29/2013 10:57:08 PM(edited)
edit: this was in response to Mr. Caesar.

I don't want to turn this into a topic about proving the existence of God, I'm trying to make a different point. But I would say you can prove God the same way a scientist proves an experiment: look at the evidence and determine the most probable explanation of the facts, even if you don't have "100% proof." (Any scientist- or philosopher- will tell you there's very little you can 100% prove; for example, the law of gravity is accepted as fact in the scientific community- and I believe it as a fact- but it's really only the best theory that best describes what we observe about how the universe works, like when we see small objects moving toward large objects).
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#7Julian_CaesarPosted 5/29/2013 10:57:40 PM
From: OrangeWizard | #004
From: Julian_Caesar | #002
How exactly would you go about proving that Allah didn't exist, or that the Christian God does exist?


Doesn't matter. Those are his only available options, since disproving him by arguing about Allah's morality is illogical.


Fair enough. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the discussion.
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Every day the rest of your life is changed forever.
#8OrangeWizardPosted 5/29/2013 10:59:07 PM
From: HardcoreRPG | #005
Morality cannot be objective and mind based.


Why can't God make morality objective? Is he not all powerful?

I can criticize characters I believe to fake or don't believe to be real. We do that in literature and films and video games all the time.


Do you criticize perfect characters often?
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#9Faust_8Posted 5/29/2013 11:18:23 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
Why can't God make morality objective? Is he not all powerful?


I'm really missing how power enters into this. No matter how powerful a god is, that doesn't mean that he's doesn't possess a mind. If he makes it, it comes from his mind. Therefore, not objective.

It's like saying the perfect man could make something non-man-made. It's not possible. If man makes it, it's man-made. No matter how perfect or powerful this man is, that's still true.

Do you criticize perfect characters often?


If they were actually perfect, there would be no criticism that COULD be leveled at them.
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#10C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 5/29/2013 11:18:39 PM
HardcoreRPG posted...
Objective means independent of minds. Morality cannot be objective and mind based.


I defined what I meant by objective, and it wasn't "independent of minds." It was "independent of human opinion."

I can criticize characters I believe to fake or don't believe to be real. We do that in literature and films and video games all the time.

The second is a fair requirement.


But these other characters in literature, films and video games don't always profess to be real, non-human, higher than humans, and the creator of moral law. The God of the Bible, for example, is not just a character in a book the same way Harry Potter is the character in a book.
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