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Pastor Says that if Followers Pay for His Helicopter, God Will Buy them a Car

#31kozlo100Posted 6/26/2013 3:56:03 PM(edited)
The line on what is and isn't actual Christian theology might be fuzzy, and it's certainly too broad a topic to try to draw an encompassing line in one, or even many, forum posts. However, that doesn't preclude us from knowing what is definitely on one side of that fuzzy line or the other.

“Scripture teaches when you give to a Kingdom need God will raise up someone to use their power, their ability and their influence to help you.”

“I believe with all my heart this message is for you and your doing something today is the key to releasing this favor on your transportation situation!” the letter states. “Send me the transportation need or your dream you have by completing the online petition when you sow a $52.00 transportation favor seed believing in 52 days or 52 weeks you will experience a breakthrough favor!”


This is on the "not Christian theology" side of the line. Scripture doesn't state that. "transportation favor seeds" and timed reciprocal rewards are not things talked about in any Christian scripture. Hence he is not teaching Christian theology.

That quoted paragraph is a Ford, not a Honda.
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and fruit flies like a banana.
#32PhoroPosted 6/28/2013 6:07:09 PM
@kozlo:

But don't all Christian denominations and sects walk this line as well? After all, these different 'genres' of Christianity do exist, but certainly they don't all view one another as "real Christians".

In example, are Mormons Christians? Because they'll tell you that they're truer Christians than others because they have expanded testimony of Jesus Christ. However, most of these 'other' Christians will hand-wave Mormonism away as a cult, which is pretty far removed from Christianity. Who's right?

My view is that, with respect to religiosity, you are whatever you say you are. You say you're Christian? Fine. Christianity involves a personal god, and that god is slightly different for every single believer (as is testimony and personal revelation). Who am I (or you or anyone else) to tell someone that they aren't what they claim to be?

We can't look into someone's soul and tell if they really believe what they claim to believe, so why press the matter when the subject is a Christian pastor who's also clearly (to some people like you and me, but not everybody) a con-man? After all, couldn't the argument be made that some entire churches (ie: Catholic and Mormon) could be considered money scams? From a certain perspective, isn't that a fair thing to say?
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What she asked of me, at the end of the day, Caligula would have blushed...
#33kozlo100Posted 6/28/2013 6:30:38 PM
Phoro posted...
But don't all Christian denominations and sects walk this line as well? After all, these different 'genres' of Christianity do exist, but certainly they don't all view one another as "real Christians".


Sure, they do walk that line, and as I said before, it is a very broad and fuzzy line with room for lots of difference of opinion in it. I'm of the opinions that Mormons are Christian, and in general I am a fan of self identification as well.

My point is that what this guy is preaching is so beyond the pale that even being over-generously inclusive, he still doesn't fit. I mean, if you have a pastor who is preaching that Jesus is evil and not to be trusted, then we're fair to say he's not a Christian, even if he calls himself one. This dude isn't quite that extreme, but he's still too far afield to rely on simple self-identification.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#34PhoroPosted 6/28/2013 8:51:37 PM
kozlo100 posted...
Phoro posted...
But don't all Christian denominations and sects walk this line as well? After all, these different 'genres' of Christianity do exist, but certainly they don't all view one another as "real Christians".


Sure, they do walk that line, and as I said before, it is a very broad and fuzzy line with room for lots of difference of opinion in it. I'm of the opinions that Mormons are Christian, and in general I am a fan of self identification as well.

My point is that what this guy is preaching is so beyond the pale that even being over-generously inclusive, he still doesn't fit. I mean, if you have a pastor who is preaching that Jesus is evil and not to be trusted, then we're fair to say he's not a Christian, even if he calls himself one. This dude isn't quite that extreme, but he's still too far afield to rely on simple self-identification.


What's the difference between this pastor and the 'Prosperity Gospel' pastors? Some of these guys, like Joel Osteen, have congregations that number in the 10's or 100's of thousands, and I would think most of them believe they are Christian. I understand that popularity doesn't make it right, but it shows that, from the perspective of these many followers, these guys are "real Christian pastors".

Look at E.W. Jackson, candidate for Lt. Governor of Virginia (I think...). He literally preaches that it's good, even for the poor, to give money to the wealthy. How is that any different than this helicopter nonsense? His political peers seem have no problem calling him a good Christian man.

I guess I'm trying to say that this kind of Christian fleecing is nothing new, and I don't think it takes a gigantic leap to go from paying tithes to paying for helicopter maintenance, when the guys asking for the money are both promising something that might be too good to be true (everlasting life/immediate material gains).
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What she asked of me, at the end of the day, Caligula would have blushed...
#35kozlo100Posted 6/28/2013 11:02:14 PM
Phoro posted...
What's the difference between this pastor and the 'Prosperity Gospel' pastors?


For me? Knowledge of what it is exactly that they're preaching. I'm sure this dude isn't the only one who's so off the reservation that I'm comfortable saying he isn't a pastor, but he's the one in front of me right now.

I can't speak to Osteen or Jackson or anyone else who's fleecing his flock, it's entirely possible that I'd feel the same way about them. You're right that it's nothing new, but that doesn't change the fact that con-men don't deserve the titles they assume. I also did cover the difference between tithing and being swindled earlier in the topic. There is a difference, and I don't think it's hard to spot.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#36PhoroPosted 6/29/2013 3:35:02 AM
kozlo100 posted...
Phoro posted...
What's the difference between this pastor and the 'Prosperity Gospel' pastors?


For me? Knowledge of what it is exactly that they're preaching. I'm sure this dude isn't the only one who's so off the reservation that I'm comfortable saying he isn't a pastor, but he's the one in front of me right now.

I can't speak to Osteen or Jackson or anyone else who's fleecing his flock, it's entirely possible that I'd feel the same way about them. You're right that it's nothing new, but that doesn't change the fact that con-men don't deserve the titles they assume. I also did cover the difference between tithing and being swindled earlier in the topic. There is a difference, and I don't think it's hard to spot.



I agree there's a difference, but I also believe the divide isn't huge and it doesn't take much in the way of suggestion to encourage a flock to make the jump. And if these church-goers really believe that giving all their money to their 'pastor' will improve their lives, well, they can have it.
But yeah, what they're doing is totally bull****, I'm with you here.
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What she asked of me, at the end of the day, Caligula would have blushed...
#37C_MatPosted 6/29/2013 10:17:19 AM
The Bible says there are and always will be false teachers. Like Kozlo said, it is sometimes pretty easy to tell when you have one in front of you.
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#38YouAreCrumbsPosted 6/29/2013 10:42:40 AM
So a pastor saying that if you're on god's good side he'll answer your prayers while he passes around a tithing dish is Christian, or a Honda, or whatever.

A pastor saying that if you give him money god will give you what you want is not a Christian, he's a Ford, etc.

So even if you end up with someone paying money because he believes god will help him get a car in the future in both congregations, that second pastor is a Ford because he was too explicit? It seems like you're saying you don't want a Ford, but you'd love if that Focus had some Accord badges on it.
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joey444
We elect Obama and all the capitalists will be executed. This is a legitimate concern of mine. - OMGWTFPIE, 2011
#39SSj4WingzeroPosted 6/29/2013 11:11:56 AM
YouAreCrumbs posted...
So a pastor saying that if you're on god's good side he'll answer your prayers while he passes around a tithing dish is Christian, or a Honda, or whatever.

A pastor saying that if you give him money god will give you what you want is not a Christian, he's a Ford, etc.

So even if you end up with someone paying money because he believes god will help him get a car in the future in both congregations, that second pastor is a Ford because he was too explicit? It seems like you're saying you don't want a Ford, but you'd love if that Focus had some Accord badges on it.


Neither of those things is something a remotely decent pastor should be saying; both are Fords. A pastor who says that tithing brings you to God's good side and thus God will answer your prayers is just as crooked as a pastor who says that giving him money will make God answer your prayers...this is a rather shallow understanding about what pastors do or say.
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#40YouAreCrumbsPosted 6/29/2013 11:15:40 AM
SSj4Wingzero posted...
YouAreCrumbs posted...
So a pastor saying that if you're on god's good side he'll answer your prayers while he passes around a tithing dish is Christian, or a Honda, or whatever.

A pastor saying that if you give him money god will give you what you want is not a Christian, he's a Ford, etc.

So even if you end up with someone paying money because he believes god will help him get a car in the future in both congregations, that second pastor is a Ford because he was too explicit? It seems like you're saying you don't want a Ford, but you'd love if that Focus had some Accord badges on it.


Neither of those things is something a remotely decent pastor should be saying; both are Fords. A pastor who says that tithing brings you to God's good side and thus God will answer your prayers is just as crooked as a pastor who says that giving him money will make God answer your prayers...this is a rather shallow understanding about what pastors do or say.


I guess I've only been around shallow pastors. Welcome to Texas.
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joey444
We elect Obama and all the capitalists will be executed. This is a legitimate concern of mine. - OMGWTFPIE, 2011