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If there is only one true god...

#1Faust_8Posted 7/13/2013 7:29:40 PM
...then why do so many spiritually enlightened people get it wrong?

If you're religious, you obviously feel that certain people can spiritually enlightened and can be "in tune" with the one god. Even if it's rare, some people at some times can achieve a state where they can communicate or uncover truths about god, right? Or, the one god would choose these people to communicate to or give revelations.

If there is one true god and if humanity has the capability to know this god through meditation/revelation...why doesn't every enlightened person find the same god? Surely it would be immediately apparent if there was only one right answer?

In addition, if the one true god, the creator of everything, the omnipotent omniscient super-genius wrote a book...why doesn't it dominate the globe?

A book from the galactic uber-being would have such profound wisdom and teachings that no other book anywhere could ever match it. It would have information that no human yet knew and no part of it would ever be shown to be wrong. It would blow anything ever written by mankind out of the water because nothing humans EVER wrote could ever compete with its moral lessons and factual information, and it would be immediately obvious to anyone who ever read it. As such, there would only be one version of it because you don't need anything else. Why would we expect anything less?

Any criticisms of this argument that I've seen ("They're not really enlightened, they're deluding themselves" or "they're in denial out of pride" or whatever) fail because they can easily apply to both sides. If you admit that people can get spiritual matters wrong it opens up the possibility that yours are wrong too...or that no one has ever had any enlightened spiritual thoughts at all because such things aren't possible.

You can't say the people of religion X are right and people of religion Y are not and just deluded when they both have equal conviction and neither of their dogmas or books seem any superior to the other. Neither has wisdom never seen anywhere else, neither has a completely infallible holy book, neither has completely accepted moral teachings, and neither has any more proof than the other.

Whereas what we should expect of a holy book from the one true god, it WOULD be demonstrably true by any test we could ever level at it. Every claim it made about the universe or humanity would be proven correct even when the information was totally unknown to the entire human race, and any moral teachings it gave would be demonstrably better for humankind than anything else. Its message would be completely timeless and it would transcend geography, culture, race, and gender. There would be a stark contrast between it and any book written by human hands alone. It wouldn't be a matter of opinion or interpretation, it would be an obvious fact. Any competitors would be short lived--not death by the sword, but by peaceful assimilation. Because denial would be impossible in light of such beauty.

How do we explain the state of the world right now?
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In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
#2OrangeWizardPosted 7/13/2013 7:32:14 PM(edited)
From: Faust_8 | #001
...then why do so many spiritually enlightened people get it wrong?


You just went from zero to "begging the question" in less than a sentence.

You're assuming that anybody who got it wrong is spiritually enlightened.

Clearly, if there is only one God, you are not spiritually enlightened if you do not know him.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#3Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 7/13/2013 7:35:57 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
From: Faust_8 | #001
...then why do so many spiritually enlightened people get it wrong?


You just went from zero to "begging the question" in less than a sentence.

You're assuming that anybody who got it wrong is spiritually enlightened.

Clearly, if there is only one God, you are not spiritually enlightened if you do not know him.


I guess you either didn't read where I addressed this or are just being the typical OW.
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In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
#4OrangeWizardPosted 7/13/2013 7:47:12 PM
From: Faust_8 | #001
In addition, if the one true god, the creator of everything, the omnipotent omniscient super-genius wrote a book...why doesn't it dominate the globe?


It does?

The award for most translated book goes to...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_literary_works_by_number_of_translations

Also, look at Jehovah's Witnesses dominating that chart.

The award for most circulated book goes to...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

The Bible, the Qur'an, The Communist Manifesto and Quotations from Chairman Mao are widely reported as the most-printed and most-distributed books in the world, with hundreds of millions of copies of each of them believed to be in existence. Exact print figures for some such books may also be missing or unreliable since these kinds of books may be produced by many different and unrelated publishers, in some cases over many centuries.



It would have information that no human yet knew


Not necessarily. There's no rule that says you have to "shock and awe" people if you don't want to.

and no part of it would ever be shown to be wrong.

Wanna go there? Because we can go there.

and it would be immediately obvious to anyone who ever read it.

You overestimate human intelligence. Some people believe in Time Cube.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#5OrangeWizardPosted 7/13/2013 7:52:23 PM(edited)
Any criticisms of this argument that I've seen ("They're not really enlightened, they're deluding themselves" or "they're in denial out of pride" or whatever) fail because they can easily apply to both sides.


Tu Quoque does not nullify the the fallacy that you made.

If you admit that people can get spiritual matters wrong it opens up the possibility that yours are wrong too...or that no one has ever had any enlightened spiritual thoughts at all because such things aren't possible.


Yes, those are all possibilities. I still don't see how that lets you escape from your fallacy.

You can't say the people of religion X are right and people of religion Y are not and just deluded when they both have equal conviction and neither of their dogmas or books seem any superior to the other.


A) Conviction is irrelevant
B) whether or not they "seem" superior or inferior is irrelevant.

Whereas what we should expect of a holy book from the one true god, it WOULD be demonstrably true by any test we could ever level at it. Every claim it made about the universe or humanity would be proven correct even when the information was totally unknown to the entire human race, and any moral teachings it gave would be demonstrably better for humankind than anything else. Its message would be completely timeless and it would transcend geography, culture, race, and gender. There would be a stark contrast between it and any book written by human hands alone.


All those things are as you say they are. The bible is exactly what you say it should be.

Any competitors would be short lived--not death by the sword, but by peaceful assimilation. Because denial would be impossible in light of such beauty.


Except that the bible itself says that the people who are correct will be few, and the wrong will be many.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#6OrangeWizardPosted 7/13/2013 7:48:25 PM
How do we explain the state of the world right now?


The bible explains it.
Shows how much you know about what you're criticizing.


From: Faust_8 | #003
I guess you either didn't read where I addressed this or are just being the typical OW.


And now it's addressed, and what I said is still true. You're still begging the question and I'm still right. Typical me indeed.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#7Hustle KongPosted 7/13/2013 7:49:56 PM
If you admit that people can get spiritual matters wrong it opens up the possibility that yours are wrong too.


Not everyone has as hard a time admitting that there is a chance they could be wrong, you know.
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Shooting Game never die.
It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.
#8Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 7/13/2013 10:42:00 PM
It's a problem when people have total conviction they're right, yet everybody thinks that, and each is no more likely to be right than anyone else.

Divorce rate is about 40%. People know this. But what do newlyweds say their chances of divorce are? 0%. Every time. Everybody thinks their marriage is different. Everybody thinks their religion is most likely to be true. This is just irrelevant--it's the optimism bias inherent to everybody. It doesn't mean we have to take their convictions seriously.

OW says (as expected) that his book isn't wrong, but that's a completely useless statement. A book truly written by the one true god would be correct at everything...to every observer. To deniers, to impartial witnesses, and to believers. A believer insisting his book is infallible is like a car salesman insisting that the car he's selling is the best. The "best" car would be the one agreed upon by popular consensus, not what the manufacturer claims.

The Bible being the most translated book is also irrelevant--"global dominance" would mean over 90% of people globally would believe it because it would make no sense not to. The only people who wouldn't would the ones truly ignorant of it or the few crazies--there wouldn't be a significant population of them. No religion has ever had that kind of following. I didn't mean "most popular" at all--in fact, it should have no competitors to begin with if it was truly superior in all respects.

It would have information that no human yet knew

"Not necessarily. There's no rule that says you have to 'shock and awe' people if you don't want to."

Why is learning something new "shock and awe"?
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In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
#9TheBlackCat13Posted 7/14/2013 1:11:50 AM
OrangeWizard posted...
The award for most circulated book goes to...

The holy books of two different, mutually-exclusive religions and two secular books on the same topic.
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Man Is The Lowest Cost, 150 Pound, Nonlinear, All-purpose Computer System Which Can Be Mass Produced By Unskilled Labor
-- NASA
#10PhoroPosted 7/14/2013 4:45:28 AM
I'm with you Faust. Keep fighting the good fight.

*gets popcorn and whatnot*
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What she asked of me, at the end of the day...
Caligula would have blushed.