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POLL: If Judas was high on drugs, would you forgive him for betraying Jesus?

#21kts123Posted 7/24/2013 6:24:44 AM(edited)
God planned for Judas to freely commit evil? How does that follow logically?

I have no problem with free will. But I also have no problem with God breaking free will when it comes to the crucifixion. He was trying to change the world forever, after all.


I agree with your latter statement, and it does say Satan entered Judas. However we have to bear in mind, Jesus may have not needed Judas in particular to betray him, just someone. In which case, he just needed to find a dirty-double crosser to get to tag along till people started offering money for his head.

It sounds more weird when we say God planned Judas to betray Him, as opposed to saying God needed any 'ol double-crosser to betray Him. In which case, the feat is picking out someone who would betray him when offered money, as opposed to somehow making Judas freely do it.

In otherwords, it's one thing to get my car stolen by leaving my keys in the ignition in the wrong neighborhood. "I planned on someone stealing my car." And planning on a particular person stealing my car "I planned on Judas stealing my car." The former is relatively easy and doesn't make anyone (usually) question free will.
#22Wandering__HeroPosted 7/24/2013 11:07:38 AM
Moorish_Idol posted...
Wandering__Hero posted...
Moorish_Idol posted...
As a Christian I always figured that the betrayal was part of God's plan, because otherwise the crucifixion may not have taken place when it did (or ever, maybe). So I don't think he did anything worth punishing.

That said, I think the poll question is awfully silly.


It bothers me that people (not just you) don't seem to accept that someone can freely choose to commit evil, and that God could have planned for that

God planned for Judas to freely commit evil? How does that follow logically?

I have no problem with free will. But I also have no problem with God breaking free will when it comes to the crucifixion. He was trying to change the world forever, after all.


Its God, he can see stuff coming. He knows what every man will do in every situation, he doesn't need to force anyone's hand just anticipate when someone will do something. Judas was a ****ty apostle (he stole from the treasury for one thing), why else would Jesus have him around?

Its not like God didn't see that David would pull the Urirah Gambit, that Peter would ditch him, or countless other acts in the bible. Just cause God knows what's going to happen, doesn't mean people aren't free to choose
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#23Imperator420Posted 7/24/2013 3:10:40 PM
How the hell can I or anyone else forgive him? He didn't do anything to me. In fact, I don't even know him. Hell, I don't even know for sure that he's a real guy.
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I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast ... for it repenteth me that I have made them. - Genesis 7
#24Julian_CaesarPosted 7/24/2013 7:45:19 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
God's knowledge of your actions does not constitute a "pre-knowledge" on His part

Can God be wrong?
No?
Then his knowledge of your actions means that you are bound to those actions.


Insofar as his knowledge of my actions comes from observing me making that choice (in His eternal "present"), then yes...I am bound to actions that I have chosen to make. God is not wrong, nor does His knowledge of my choices dictate that they were not freely made.

Where does it say that in the bible? How did you come to that conclusion?


"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

If God created the universe, He must necessarily be outside the flow of time, since time is not an independent "place" or "dimension" but is rather a construct that is dependent on space in order to exist.

Once it's been established that God is outside time, the rest is logical extrapolation.
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#25Vado_UNPosted 7/26/2013 6:32:49 AM
Jesus would have forgiven him so yes.
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#26Imperator420Posted 7/26/2013 6:38:00 AM
Julian_Caesar posted...
OrangeWizard posted...
God's knowledge of your actions does not constitute a "pre-knowledge" on His part

Can God be wrong?
No?
Then his knowledge of your actions means that you are bound to those actions.


Insofar as his knowledge of my actions comes from observing me making that choice (in His eternal "present"), then yes...I am bound to actions that I have chosen to make. God is not wrong, nor does His knowledge of my choices dictate that they were not freely made.


Well, of course. You can know anything without having any power to affect it. Your choices were not freely made because he made you.
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I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast ... for it repenteth me that I have made them. - Genesis 7