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Can the Christians of this board pick either faith OR fact already?

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3 years ago#1
On one hand, you have Christians that consider faith a virtue. Having faith is a good thing for the privileged and enlightened, and they admit that their beliefs...are beliefs. Not proven, not facts. However, they believe regardless. Ok, that's fine. I have no problem with that, well, at least there's nothing inherently inconsistent about it or anything. Faith is faith; we all have it about some things.

But then I also hear from pretty much the same people, when it's convenient for the argument that Jesus/God/Christianity/Bible is a FACT. It's proven and you're blind if you can't see it. Science confirms it, smart people know it.

If I thought these two groups were always separate people, again, that at least wouldn't be hypocrisy. It would just be people with vastly different opinions. But I think I do see these two groups have the same members sometimes, depending on the argument.

If your claims are fact, how do you have faith? Do you have faith that the Sun will rise or that dropped things fall or that your mother is a human? You don't have faith in facts, you simply know they are true. So why do you claim to have faith about your religion? Clearly, you think it's a fact that doesn't require faith.

So, I'd like to pick your poison and stick with it: either faith is a virtue OR you know the truth. You can't have both--you can't be good because you have faith when you don't even need faith because you KNOW the facts. It's just a hypocritical self-praise mechanism that lets you weasel out of things. You can either look smart by knowing things but if it's ever shown to be wrong, you fall back on "well it's about faith" despite you not caring much about that virtue when you thought you had facts on your side. Or when you know something isn't a fact you can have pride that you have the power of belief.

Pick one. I'm tired of you having your cake and eating it too.

*I know this doesn't apply ALL the time--I mean, you know for a fact that certain places existed or certain kingdoms existed, and so on. So not every little thing about Christianity requires faith. This is about the bigger claims, like the resurrection or God himself or something where I hear it's both fact and all about our free will to have faith and blessed are those who have it.*
In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
3 years ago#2
"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."
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It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.
3 years ago#3
Yeah, you one or two specific people Faust is talking to! >:(
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3 years ago#4
I actually got someone, I think OW, to admit that if the bible agreed with evolution, that he would accept it, since it's in the book.

I will say it's a silly and inconsistent mindset to believe in God and then use science and facts. This is a major reason I ended up becoming an atheist. The two worldviews, when studied critically, are rather mutually exclusive. Much of the Bible, when not taken as a consistent narrative, begins to create more and more problems and plotholes. It is quite apparent to me the supernatural events didn't happen, and that it's just a bunch of myth mixed in with some historical truth here and there.
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3 years ago#5
Do you guys just keep large posts ready in Notepad so you can copy and paste them every few days?
3 years ago#6


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3 years ago#7
Moorish_Idol posted...
Do you guys just keep large posts ready in Notepad so you can copy and paste them every few days?

No I just get an idea and start writing, pretty much.

Anything else is like homework, and screw that I'm done with school for now.
In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
3 years ago#8
Between you and Jon, it just feels like I've read posts like these a couple dozen times already.

But anyway, I think you are misinterpreting people speaking about their beliefs in the positive with people claiming fact. They say they have faith because it can't be confirmed 100% without question, but they can believe it to be true anyway.

I don't think people should have to type "I don't know it for a fact, but..." before every post. I mean this is a religious board, these things should be implied.
3 years ago#9
Polish_Crusader posted...
We are gods creation. Its a documented fact.


This is what I'm talking about. When they literally say it's a fact. I'm not talking about when they just believe it's true, because that's just faith. Believing something is true isn't the same as saying something is a fact, because a fact is by definition objectively verifiable and indisputable. So even things that are true may not be facts because they're not agreed upon. So that's not what I'm talking about.

It's when they say things just like this but then Polish or others will later tell you how you need to believe. Why would I, when apparently I can just look it up and see it proved objectively (or so they think)? Do I need to believe or just do some research and then I'll know about it, in the same way I can look up information on colonial America and then just know about it?

They alternate between saying I just need to know more and I need to BELIEVE more.

Of course not everyone is guilty of this but I think more are than people realize. Or maybe there are few individuals and I'm just getting spun by the population of Christians as a whole, where some say it's faith and some claim knowledge in which case it's the millionth-and-one thing Christians don't agree on.
In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.
3 years ago#10
I wouldn't use PC as an example of "them". Even most Christians on this board think he's full of it.
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