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Hermant Mahta on millenials leaving the Church

#91WelshGamer82Posted 8/16/2013 2:36:23 PM
I remember when you were a proper hardcore atheist, kts.

Your conversion is one of the most astounding ones I've ever experienced.
#92Dr Edward RoivasPosted 8/16/2013 3:26:41 PM
IMO, sophistication is not truth.


Modern American Christians are winning the war of complexity and sincerity against Modern American Atheists. Modern American Christians are becoming highly passionate about trying to put their hearts and minds in the place of those who believe in "no gods, no religious stuff, no none of that". They are evolving ahead of the people who say "life just is what is is" and "god is both terrible and impossible".


While I believe atheists are correct, I also believe they're losing, and their arguments are being digested and pooped out day after day. They lack a cohesive analysis of what Modern American Christians are actually feeling right now, and what bolsters their passion, their scorn and their love, in spite of the undeniably un-good things in the Bible and in religious thought in general. The contradictions they fall in love with, by feeling the nuances of their audaciousness, and the rationalizations that make them work. Ask me what I believe, and I'll say it's something that harnesses contradictions in ways of feeling about the world, godless but not so "enough of this meaningless garbage" as my fellow Atheists. I believe that overall Modern American Christians are more emotionally aware than their atheistic opponents.


But the God/No God war has become the cultural paradigm. It's not about Church at all. In my American culture, religion is how you believe existence functions on the highest and most moral level. Not what you practice in your community. In the long run, this could degrade the religion. Or maybe, it will all just become Godism or something.


If I sound like I'm rambling, think about this: Faith is all about living a good life. Faith is also all about heavenly rewards. When someone challenges you, tell them they are missing out on greatness. When they beat you, tell them ENJOY HELL LOSER. Aware of the d***ery of these symbiotic arguments, you believe, "I can't be so wrong".


At its most basic, modern Christians are driven by this sentiment.

"God can't exist....he can't be perfect...but that's why....that's why he is!! There is some space metaphysically and intellectually where that breaks through! I feel bad some people can't feel this!!!"

Another contradiction which inspires the modern Christian heart is ....

"The Bible is garbage/the Bible is right". They spend such gargantuan amounts of time thinking about how indefensibly inaccurate and cruel the bible is, and how no, this is the hidden depth. I believe the only depth lies in the arguments themselves, not in reality.



There is an immense ferocity happening as tens of millions of people conduct online debates, crashing into each other like an epic fantasy movie. I think that eventually Atheists will form a second wave that's not so simple, something based on something less "anti" and more keenly analytical and sincere.
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A real squid? That's even worse than an illusion! Where's my shotgun?
#93kozlo100Posted 8/16/2013 3:48:03 PM
kts123 posted...
My view cannot be proven. I am wholly too stupid to prove God, He's entirely out of my league. The only reason anyone can ever know God, is the same reason an infant finds its way into its mother's arms. The baby just squeals, the mother does what is entirely beyond the child's capacity.


I try to have the same approach on the other side of the proverbial isle. What can I do to prove my worldview is correct in the face of your life and your experiences? Nothing. Why should you trust mine over yours? Why would you? No reason at all.

You say the Holy Spirit moved you, then I'll take you at your word, because what else can I reasonably do besides wait around and see if it does the same to me?

You will know the world as your experiences dictate you must, just as I will. And while we can get much usefulness and learning out of talking to each other about how we see it, and arguing when we disagree about things, neither of us has the tools, information, nor ability to invalidate what is in another person's head. I don't know why anyone would try.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#94Moorish_IdolPosted 8/16/2013 3:57:12 PM
kozlo100 posted...
You will know the world as your experiences dictate you must, just as I will. And while we can get much usefulness and learning out of talking to each other about how we see it, and arguing when we disagree about things, neither of us has the tools, information, nor ability to invalidate what is in another person's head. I don't know why anyone would try.

Exactly. That's why I think this board (and other religion boards) are great: they give you an opportunity to learn about other worldviews from people who actually hold them. I don't understand why some people don't value that opportunity and opt instead for the "prove it, show me evidence" chatter as if such a request is even relevant.
#95kozlo100Posted 8/16/2013 4:13:28 PM
Well, I do like asking for evidence in areas where it's relevant, expected, and sharable. It's an important step in evaluating, and possibly adopting a new belief.

It's declaring a belief wrong when discussing an area where it's not relevant, not expected, or impossible to share that gets my goat.

Prove that the Earth is only 6000 years old is one thing, prove that the Holy Spirit moved you is quite another. Confusing the two is worse than useless.

And this is all on the back of the very valid point kts was making that the idea of proving things via empirical evidence is the best way to arrive at truth is itself a claim that cannot be proven via empirical evidence.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#96JonWood007Posted 8/16/2013 4:18:47 PM
I was kind of hoping for philosophical proof at the very least....

Anyway, to comment, seeing how your proof is basically Bible verses....why accept the Bible?

I mean, considering all the crap you gave my worldview I'm kind of disappointed there...and here I was researching solipsism in an attempt to plug the holes in my views and everything else...

As for God making sense of thingd...it really doesn't for me. I tried it, and I became an atheist out of it. Heck, today I've seen someone close to me, who is still a believer, wonder if God is punishing them because everything has been going wrong lately and all, and me, having progressed far beyond that stage of reasoning, would like so much to explain that crap just happens, unfortunately I can't reason with them on this matter. However, I feel for them. I see religion as adding extra elements to life that aren't really there, inferring design and plans where there are none. To me, life makes more sense without these extra elements.

Some leaps of faith are necessary in life. Looking into solipsism, it's impossible to completely disprove "the ultimate skepticism." However, that doesn't mean that we can't take a minimalist approach in accepting such leaps, ie, we only accept those leaps of faith that are necessary. Just because you take some leaps doesn't give you a license to believe whatever you darn well want. Rather, you take leaps because you've reached a degree of certainty where denial then becomes less reasonable than acceptance. And to deny the universe just does not seem reasonable. Is it reasonable to deny you exist? That this keyboard exists? That this screen exists? I'm clearly interacting with something, and therefore, I can say that something exists in some way.

Sure, it is possible it's not real, but after reaching this degree of certainty, I would argue that the burden of proof is on those claiming it isn't. Remember, Morpheus never went up to Neo and said this world is a lie, you're a brain in a vat. Rather, he took Neo out of his fake world and showed him why it's fake. This world is all I know. It's all I have reliability interacted with. To deny it exists, is to deny reality itself. I feel like I can safely assume it exists, until proven otherwise. Otherwise, the logical conclusion is that I shouldn't accept anything you say anyway because you're just an illusion and who knows if it's true. Without this step, I'm left in the ultimate skepticism, and that just seems unreasonable.

But the God question? I don't think it's reasonable to warrant a leap of faith. I see no evidence, no decent philosophical argument that doesn't boil down to subjective reasoning and word manipulation, and you seem to be in agreement on that. But unlike you, I see no reason to believe it exists. Calling out to God doesn't mean anything to me if I can't be certain what I think responds back is actually the thing I'm trying to call out to. I used to be a Christian. I used to deal with these issues, and after a while, I began to doubt, with good reason, that what I attributed to God actually was God. To you, God makes the world make sense, but to me, it adds in unnecessary elements, extra assumptions, and ultimately, the world just ceases to make sense. And to me, this adds more stress.

I mean, if there was at least circumstantial evidence for God, that may warrant belief, but if we approached the universe like a crime scene, there's no finger prints, no hair, no markings, nothing. not a single thing to link him to the crime scene. How can you call someone guilty without no evidence?
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#97kozlo100Posted 8/16/2013 4:30:39 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#98kts123Posted 8/16/2013 9:51:51 PM
Jon, Neo never left the Matrix.
#99JonWood007Posted 8/16/2013 11:06:08 PM
Um...what?
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Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 8 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HDD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
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#100DarkContractor(Topic Creator)Posted 8/17/2013 2:44:54 AM
JonWood007 posted...
Um...what?


Zion was an extra layer for the AI, a security blanket so to speak. It's the only thing that can explain Neo's ability to use his powers in 'real life'.
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http://counteringchristianity.blogspot.com/ - My blog.