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"Can God make a square circle" isn't a fair question

#71OrangeWizardPosted 9/4/2013 11:12:09 PM
A dead immortal is logically impossible on it's own.
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Trolling and making valid arguments are not mutually exclusive
#72GuideToTheDarkPosted 9/4/2013 11:41:04 PM
Faust_8 posted...
You're saying omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible.

And that contradicting one's properties is logically impossible.

Therefore, I can do anything logically possible, since if you find something I can't do, it's a logical impossibility anyway and not fair. It doesn't detract from my omnipotence if the task you give me is logically impossible for me to do.
'

You're equating noncontradiction with omnipotence, which is wrong. Like I said, noncontradiction is a property of omnipotence, not the whole definition of it. Noncontradiction is a property of reality, also. We're pretty sure, at any rate.

Omnipotence is the potential to do all things. "Real omnipotence" would be "the potential to do all things in reality"

You do not have the potential to do all things in reality. Your potential is limited to what your organs and environment allow. You are the normal kind of potent, unless you're not, in which case there's viagra.
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SHUTUPPU ANDE EAT! TOO BAD NO BON APPETIT!
#73Moorish_IdolPosted 9/5/2013 1:16:37 AM
Faust_8 posted...
You're saying omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible.

And that contradicting one's properties is logically impossible.

Therefore, I can do anything logically possible, since if you find something I can't do, it's a logical impossibility anyway and not fair. It doesn't detract from my omnipotence if the task you give me is logically impossible for me to do.

No, what's not "fair" is you using two different definitions of omnipotence at once.

You can't do everything logically possible. Creation is a logical possibility, yet I doubt you can create a universe, because you are not omnipotent like god.

You are asking for god to be a mortal immortal. Again, this is no different from a square circle. You haven't proposed a coherent contradiction here.
#74kozlo100Posted 9/5/2013 1:21:13 AM
kozlo100 posted...
You have to define how immortality relates to omnipotence. Does omnipotence require than one be immutably immortal, or just that one cannot die unless one wants to?

If it is the former, then this is just a restatement of the rock problem. If it is the latter, then yes, and omnipotent being can kill itself without contradicting it's omnipotence.


Quoting my own post because it had the fate of being the last post on a page, but I do think the question is relevant, and as yet unaddressed.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#75Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 9/5/2013 7:19:25 AM
Moorish_Idol posted...
Faust_8 posted...
You're saying omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible.

And that contradicting one's properties is logically impossible.

Therefore, I can do anything logically possible, since if you find something I can't do, it's a logical impossibility anyway and not fair. It doesn't detract from my omnipotence if the task you give me is logically impossible for me to do.

No, what's not "fair" is you using two different definitions of omnipotence at once.

You can't do everything logically possible. Creation is a logical possibility, yet I doubt you can create a universe, because you are not omnipotent like god.

You are asking for god to be a mortal immortal. Again, this is no different from a square circle. You haven't proposed a coherent contradiction here.


I understand your reasoning but I'm just not sure it actually refutes my argument. The whole reason I made this topic is to see if this argument (I found it somewhere else) holds any water.

Omnipotence is the ability to absolutely anything that isn't logically impossible. And, contradicting yourself is logically impossible so you can't do that either. The thing is, I'm seeing it like this:

"I can do anything that doesn't contradict my properties and is possible to do" looks like it can describe God, me, you, and basically anything. Creation? That's logically impossible for me to do, so asking it of me is like asking God to make a square circle. Therefore I can do anything that it's logically possible for me to do, same with God.

I hate to keep restating this but I'm not sure that I agree that you've undermined this.
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I'm not against religion. I'm against all bad ideas, held for bad reasons, prompting bad behavior.
#76Faust_8(Topic Creator)Posted 9/5/2013 7:21:51 AM
kozlo100 posted...
kozlo100 posted...
You have to define how immortality relates to omnipotence. Does omnipotence require than one be immutably immortal, or just that one cannot die unless one wants to?

If it is the former, then this is just a restatement of the rock problem. If it is the latter, then yes, and omnipotent being can kill itself without contradicting it's omnipotence.


Quoting my own post because it had the fate of being the last post on a page, but I do think the question is relevant, and as yet unaddressed.


I'm not really sure. I've always taken immortality as defined by the former definition.
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I'm not against religion. I'm against all bad ideas, held for bad reasons, prompting bad behavior.
#77kozlo100Posted 9/5/2013 10:02:17 AM
Faust_8 posted...
I'm not really sure. I've always taken immortality as defined by the former definition.


Well, let's figure it out. Is there anything about omnipotence that implies one must live forever, rather than simply having the ability to live forever?

I'm thinking not. Clearly you must have the ability, but looking at other abilities, we don't consider it a contradiction against omnipotence if the ability is, by choice, not utilized. God has the ability to create a tiny purple elephant, but it's not a strike against his omnipotence if he never does. Likewise, I don't think God choosing not to be immortal contradicts his omnipotence.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#78Moorish_IdolPosted 9/5/2013 12:06:08 PM
Faust_8 posted...
"I can do anything that doesn't contradict my properties and is possible to do" looks like it can describe God, me, you, and basically anything. Creation? That's logically impossible for me to do, so asking it of me is like asking God to make a square circle. Therefore I can do anything that it's logically possible for me to do, same with God.

I think Guide already addressed the non-contradiction pretty well.

But as far as logical impossibilities go, I think we have different ideas of how to apply logic. Causes, activities, etc., are logical or illogical (e.g, making a square circle) -- whether you personally are able to do or not do a particular act has no effect on the logic of said act.

For example, god can create a universe. I can't create a universe. But just because I can't, my inability doesn't make it a logical impossibility. Creation is still logically possible, I simply don't have the ability to do so (because I'm not omnipotent, that is I have limits based in my nature).

In other words, your inability to do something does not mean it is illogical; logic is applied to causes and effects, not to the person. It is an external property.