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Why did God created Lucifer?

#11JonWood007Posted 9/16/2013 10:05:14 AM(edited)
Because there are multiple definitions of the word "omniscient".

Certain definitions create problems that other definitions don't have


By redefining omniscience, you show it's an illogical term. it means being able to do anything. if you place limits on what you can know, you're not omniscient any more. What you're basically doing is "oh crap, my worldview has a problem so let's tweak the definitions a bit until you don't anymore."

Or you know, God can see something like that and adapt


All while:

1) Denying responsibility for the incident

2) Punishing Lucifer for his behavior.

3) Punishing people who also rebel due to Lucifer's influence.

4) Making the answer to the problem to sacrifice his own son, who is also himself, to himself, to save you from him.

Not to mention this really poses problems with omnibenevolence, and brings up the whole problem of evil debacle.

When you deal with omni characteristics, you bring all sorts of problems on yourself. And while yeah, you can redefine the terms, I'd argue it kind of defeats their purpose. What good is omnipotence if you can't do everything? What good is omniscience if you can't know everything? What good is omnibenevolence if you allow evil and can stop it because you possess other omni qualities? If anything has moved me to gnostic atheism at all, it's the omni qualities, and the paradoxes and logical problems they invite upon themselves. If God were to exist, he would need to lack most of these qualities, and then you're just left with some being who is not all powerful, or all knowing, or all good, but MAY possess greater power, knowledge, and goodness than humans. In this scenario, God becomes more like a very powerful yet still imperfect alien, as opposed to a being we would normally think of when we think of God.

Because that's what righteous men do when faced with a tyrannical dictator. In the Bible, who has the larger death count? Who divvied up slaves after their army slaughtered children? Who claims to have wiped out nearly the entire world? Who ordered or committed genocide on multiple occasions? Now ask yourself why it is you think Luci is evil. Would you have taken Stalin's word that someone rebelling against him was pure evil while he's nothing but the Gardener of Human Happiness?


To be fair, even if God in the Bible is evil, does that really make Lucifer good? He's probably just as bad, if not worse. He seems like the ultimate troll, based on the book of Job. He doesn't seem to exactly want world peace or happiness, but to cause trouble, quite frankly.
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#12hunter_gohanPosted 9/16/2013 10:34:46 AM(edited)
JonWood007 posted...
To be fair, even if God in the Bible is evil, does that really make Lucifer good?


No. Perhaps I should've added "And Luci might be a righteous man" to that.

He's probably just as bad, if not worse. He seems like the ultimate troll, based on the book of Job. He doesn't seem to exactly want world peace or happiness, but to cause trouble, quite frankly.


That's part of my point though. Why do we know this? Because the slave approving genocidal dictator told us so in his propaganda book, and even then this pales in comparison to all the people killed or enslaved by YHWH or YHWH's army and only happened because he gave permission.

Let's ignore YHWH for a sec and take hippy, peace-loving Jesus as a given. Doesn't even need to be more than a mere human. Let's say you were alive back then and Pontius Pilate distributed materials on how evil Jesus is and the heinous acts he did. Would that actually make Jesus evil?

Now of course we can't just take a righteous Luci as a given. Your objection at the beginning is completely correct. If these beings are real, then it could very well turn out to be a Nazi vs USSR type deal. But we have no real reason to think he's evil and every reason to think YHWH is(barring the begging the question fallacy which will no doubt be brought up and defended yet again).
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#13bsballa09Posted 9/16/2013 12:00:54 PM
Polish_Crusader posted...
The real question- why did lucifer rebel?


Why did he rebel if God knew he would?
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#14Polish_CrusaderPosted 9/17/2013 4:21:37 PM
bsballa09 posted...
Polish_Crusader posted...
The real question- why did lucifer rebel?


Why did he rebel if God knew he would?


That doesnt make sense. Whether God knew about it or not (unclear), doesnt change the fact that he rebelled over something he could not win. It doesnt change the fact of the rebellion.

Answer the question- why did lucifer rebel?

I know why. But i want you guys to think critically, with your brains.
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#15181stCommander(Topic Creator)Posted 9/17/2013 4:58:40 PM
I think that like us, Angels were given a choice. Remember that many Angels joined Lucifer in the rebellion, but I'm sure they were deceived. He probably promised then Heaven and wonders and they fell for it. There's a reason of why his main title is the deceiver.

I just want to see other people opinions is this matter, specially believers and Christians.
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#16bsballa09Posted 9/17/2013 8:38:18 PM
Polish_Crusader posted...
bsballa09 posted...
Polish_Crusader posted...
The real question- why did lucifer rebel?


Why did he rebel if God knew he would?


That doesnt make sense. Whether God knew about it or not (unclear), doesnt change the fact that he rebelled over something he could not win. It doesnt change the fact of the rebellion.

Answer the question- why did lucifer rebel?

I know why. But i want you guys to think critically, with your brains.


How is it unclear if God ia omniscient?
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#17Polish_CrusaderPosted 9/18/2013 3:04:55 PM
You still havent answered the question.

Sounds like you are evading the issue cuz you know you are wrong.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#18Polish_CrusaderPosted 9/18/2013 3:06:32 PM
What does being omniscient have to do with changing someones will. Lucifer had free will. How does that change Gods omniscience?

Lucifer made a choice and suffered the consequences.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#19bsballa09Posted 9/18/2013 4:24:51 PM
Polish_Crusader posted...
What does being omniscient have to do with changing someones will. Lucifer had free will. How does that change Gods omniscience?

Lucifer made a choice and suffered the consequences.


If God knew he would rebel, why did God create him?
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#20Polish_CrusaderPosted 9/18/2013 4:37:36 PM
bsballa09 posted...
Polish_Crusader posted...
What does being omniscient have to do with changing someones will. Lucifer had free will. How does that change Gods omniscience?

Lucifer made a choice and suffered the consequences.


If God knew he would rebel, why did God create him?


Who says God knew he would rebel before he created him? Thats what you havent answered yet.

God gave Lucifer free will. He knew he could make one choice or the other. Just like with adam and eve.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash