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If Satan and God exist, how can you determine which is good or evil?

#1Dynast_KingPosted 12/22/2013 10:19:11 PM
- Both are supernatural beings capable of altering your perception without your awareness.
- God claims that Satan is bad, while Satan claims that God is bad.
- God has rewarded deceitful practices (e.g. Rebecca's interaction with Isaac).
- Satan never killed anyone throughout the Bible (presumably because God didn't allow him to), while God killed billions.

Using your own moral convictions, is it possible to determine which of these two beings is good or evil? Furthermore, is God only good because he says that he's good?

Disclaimer: I know the context behind every point that I raised, so please don't think you have to lecture me on scripture. What I gave you was more or less just food for thought, nothing more.
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#2FingerpuppetPosted 12/22/2013 11:42:18 PM
You're not playing the game fairly; the least you could do is add context and use accurate numbers for those who wish to play.
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#3OrangeWizardPosted 12/23/2013 7:29:10 AM
Using your own moral convictions, is it possible to determine which of these two beings is good or evil? Furthermore, is God only good because he says that he's good?


1. No, because our own moral convictions cannot be relied on to say who is objectively good or objectively bad.

2. God is good because he created morality around himself.
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#4Dynast_King(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2013 10:15:01 AM
Fingerpuppet posted...
You're not playing the game fairly; the least you could do is add context and use accurate numbers for those who wish to play.


How am I not playing it fairly? Everything I posted can be found in the Bible, save for the first point which is more or less implied.

OrangeWizard posted...
1. No, because our own moral convictions cannot be relied on to say who is objectively good or objectively bad.

2. God is good because he created morality around himself.


1. According to whom?
2. And then that creates the Euthyphro Dilemma. If God is only good because God says he's good, the moral standard that's created can only be arbitrary because it's contingent on his will and nothing more.

There's a pretty big issue with that as well, seeing as how God made a pretty noticeable change of personality from the OT to the NT. If he was perfectly good from the start and operated on an objective system of morality, why is it that he changed the standards for attaining salvation? Were his first standards not adequate? And if they weren't adequate, why should we be comfortable with him being the author of morality?
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"Undying, we Occuria light the path for wayward sons of man. Oft did we pass judgment on them so that Ivalice might endure."
#5Bugfragged13Posted 12/23/2013 5:24:58 PM
Isn't Satan supposedly subservient to God in Judaism? That would mean they are both good or both evil.

IMO, I would say God is an example of Blue and Orange Morality. I just don't get his rationale for his actions or what his end goal is.
#6Julian_CaesarPosted 12/23/2013 7:11:33 PM
Dynast_King posted...
And then that creates the Euthyphro Dilemma. If God is only good because God says he's good, the moral standard that's created can only be arbitrary because it's contingent on his will and nothing more.


God did not "create" a moral standard, God IS the moral standard. It is impossible for Him to NOT be morally perfect, because as Creator there was no other source for morality to come from. So God is not good simply because He says so; He is perfectly good because the Created Universe must necessarily reflect his morals.

And in this case, the word "arbitrary" can still mean "perfect morality" because God is a perfect arbiter. We use "arbitrary" in the negative sense because no human can be a perfect arbiter. When applied to God, however, the word is completely accurate and also means something completely different from what you're intending.
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#7Dynast_King(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2013 9:30:14 PM(edited)
Julian_Caesar posted...
God did not "create" a moral standard, God IS the moral standard. It is impossible for Him to NOT be morally perfect, because as Creator there was no other source for morality to come from. So God is not good simply because He says so; He is perfectly good because the Created Universe must necessarily reflect his morals.

And in this case, the word "arbitrary" can still mean "perfect morality" because God is a perfect arbiter. We use "arbitrary" in the negative sense because no human can be a perfect arbiter. When applied to God, however, the word is completely accurate and also means something completely different from what you're intending.


Dynast_King posted...
If he was perfectly good from the start and operated on an objective system of morality, why is it that he changed the standards for attaining salvation? Were his first standards not adequate? And if they weren't adequate, why should we be comfortable with him being the author of morality?

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"Undying, we Occuria light the path for wayward sons of man. Oft did we pass judgment on them so that Ivalice might endure."
#8OrangeWizardPosted 12/23/2013 10:00:29 PM
Dynast_King posted...

1. According to whom?

According to the subjectivity of human morals. If one person says that God is good, and the other says that god is bad, who is right?

2. And then that creates the Euthyphro Dilemma. If God is only good because God says he's good, the moral standard that's created can only be arbitrary because it's contingent on his will and nothing more.

To that I say "so?"
Are the laws of physics not arbitrary as well?
Did God not will those into existence also?

seeing as how God made a pretty noticeable change of personality from the OT to the NT.

Except that he didn't.

If he was perfectly good from the start and operated on an objective system of morality, why is it that he changed the standards for attaining salvation?

He didn't. All you've ever had to do is follow his commandments.
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#9mystic belmontPosted 12/24/2013 10:57:06 AM
Can we not judge God by his actions?
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#10Slade867Posted 12/24/2013 12:07:02 PM
mystic belmont posted...
Can we not judge God by his actions?


What standards would you use? The same standards humans follow? God is not human. You would have to judge Him as a god. What standards do they follow?
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