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Just another topic about the homosexuality and the Bible.

#1C_MatPosted 1/27/2014 9:49:23 PM(edited)
This is a topic for some discussion on what the Bible truly says about homosexuality. There is some confusion- even and especially among Christians- over whether the Bible actually condemns homosexual acts, as well as how strong the condemnation is and whether it's still relevant to the 21st Century culture. Lot of issues to deal with.

Before anyone complains, this really isn't "just another topic about" the gay issue. I know the board has plenty, and I apologize for creating another one that seems unnecessary and repetitive. I made it specifically to discuss this issue with Morgasaurus, and we decided to make a new topic about it rather than hijack someone else's.

EDIT: I will also apologize right here about the typo in the topic title. And I proofread everything else twice...

I cannot promise I will respond to everyone who wants to challenge my opening post. I hope to respond to everyone, but due to time constraints, that probably won't happen. I do make it a priority to finish a conversation with anyone who I've had interaction with previously in the topic.

Morgasaurus and I are both Christians. I do not know the specifics of Morgasaurus' arguments, but he believes the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior. Morgasaurus identifies as a gay Christian due to his same sex attraction. I have also struggled with same sex attraction my whole life; I do not identify myself as a gay Christian, and there are days where my opposite sex attraction feels stronger than my same sex attraction, so my own issues may not be as severe as other "gay Christians'" struggles. I don't want to discuss my personal issues, I only want to make it known that I am not ignorant to some of the personal struggles of gay people. I don't know exactly where I fall on the spectrum (and whether I am "more gay" or "less gay" than other people on this board), but I hope that here that can be irrelevant so that we can just stick to discussing the facts.

As I said before, I don't know exactly why Morgasaurus believes the Bible doesn't condemn homosexual behavior, so I will defend any of these four propositions below:

1) One of the primary reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed (Genesis 19) was because of the homosexual perversion in the cities (Jude).

2) Old Testament sexual ethics were outlined in the Pentateuch (Leviticus 18)- including a ban on homosexual behavior- and these sexual ethics were reinforced by Jesus in the New Testament (Mark 7).

3) Paul speaks about homosexual behavior in the second half of Romans 1, and calls it "unnatural" and "shameful." If anyone thinks Paul is being too vague for this point to stick, I can detail why I think it's certain that he was addressing homosexuality.

4) Paul condemns homosexual behavior in 1 Corinthians 6- along with adulterery, thievery, drunkenness, greed and a few of other sins- and even says that people who continue in those lifestyles will not go to heaven.
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#2Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/27/2014 9:59:45 PM
The most damning is Romans 1:24-28 (ESV)

It says homosexuality "ought not to be done" and is a "shameless act" and a "dishonorable passion". Theres no room for interpretation there. Its specifically talking about people doing homosexual acts.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#3Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/27/2014 10:01:34 PM
I have mad respect for Morgasaurus and what he is trying to do. Props for trying to spread the message of God. But so many christians believe lies and make up things about homosexuality simply because they "feel" that there is nothing wrong with it. I felt sex before marriage was doing no wrong to anybody for years, and guess what... i was wrong the whole time.

Stop believing lies. Stop believing emotions. Believe the word of God. Everything else is second.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#4Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/27/2014 10:04:02 PM
Now, you could make a case for someone who likes homosexual feelings, but doesnt do any homosexual actions. In my opinion thats not really a homosexual, in the same way a straight man thinking about fornication is not a fornicator until they ACTUALLY do fornication.

But as for the acts of the homosexual sex, it is painfully obvious that the bible states its a sin and will condemn you to hell.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#5Faust_8Posted 1/27/2014 10:20:05 PM
So is a single virgin asexual then?

I mean, once you go the route of "sexuality is determined by actions and not preference" then that's where you end up. Everyone is asexual until they act on it.

So guys, what day did YOU become a heterosexual? I bet that's a lovely question to ask at parties.

There's a reason it's called sexual preference, not sexual lifestyle. If you're attracted to the same sex, you're gay. Period. If you're attracted to the opposite sex, you're straight. Period. You don't have to act on it, because it's all about which sex you're attracted to, not which sex you take out on dates or kiss or whatever.

C_Mat:

1) I don't see how this is relevant. Has any other city been destroyed by God lately? It seems like as long as we don't have an entire city devoted to mass orgies and immorality we'll be pretty OK.

2) Makes me wonder how many other OT ethics we've long abandoned.

3) So, can someone define "natural" human behavior for me?

4) Whether someone goes to heaven or not is their business. If the Christian Right's actions against homosexuality is all about allowing more people in heaven, hot DAMN they are going about it all the wrong way.
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"It's hard to reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into."
--JonWood
#6Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/27/2014 10:38:57 PM
Faust_8 posted...


3) So, can someone define "natural" human behavior for me?



I love it when people ask stupid questions. Its just too easy.

I dont have to describe it. It says so right there in the word. This is how i know you dont actually read to comprehend the verse, you just pull it up on google to pick out something you can comment on/dont like.

Romans 1:26-29 (actually read the verse and comprehend it)

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil..."

BOLD is for the answers to your question.
1.) The verse is talking about the same group of people: "they".
2.)The verse says what natural relations are "men with women".
3.)We know what they did- they had "passion" for each other of the same sex. Passion is another word for sexual/romantic activity, hence the term "passion mark" being another term for "hickey".
4.)Then it goes on to say that these same group of people because of "their" actions have a debased mind, that they were given up to. These people (who the verse is talking about) are filled with unrighteousness and evil.

Homosexuality is contrary to nature, it ought not to be done, and it goes against acknowledging God. It says so right there. Prove me wrong.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#7Polish_CrusaderPosted 1/27/2014 10:48:26 PM
Cant believe i missed these:

2) Makes me wonder how many other OT ethics we've long abandoned.


-Leviticus 18:22 is not an old testament ethic. It is a condemnation of immoral behavior. The only part about the old testament which is voided are the rules about the old covenant. You need to read Romans7:6. Thou shall not murder is also in the old testament. Does that mean we should murder now? No, cuz that was in the ten commandments, not the old covenant.



4) Whether someone goes to heaven or not is their business. If the Christian Right's actions against homosexuality is all about allowing more people in heaven, hot DAMN they are going about it all the wrong way.


1.)What you think about the "christian right" is irrelevant to this topic. This topic is not about the "christian right". Its about homosexuality and the bible. Im not even entirely sure what the "christian right" even is.

2.)This topic is telling an important part about avoiding hell and getting into heaven- dont be homosexual. An extension of- dont do sexual immorality, period. If you know a better way, please tell us, oh enlightened one.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#8JonWood007Posted 1/28/2014 12:14:46 AM

1) One of the primary reasons Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed (Genesis 19) was because of the homosexual perversion in the cities (Jude).


I was under the impression there was a lot more going on than that, considering how they only tried to rape God's angel and all. I think homosexuality was the least of the perversions going on there.

Beyond that, the Bible says what it says.
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#9bratt100Posted 1/28/2014 3:12:15 AM
Forgive me if I'm wrong here but isn't Cmat homosexual? Or is it somebody else I'm thinking of?
#10Faust_8Posted 1/28/2014 7:00:16 AM
Polish_Crusader posted...
Faust_8 posted...


3) So, can someone define "natural" human behavior for me?



I love it when people ask stupid questions. Its just too easy.

I dont have to describe it. It says so right there in the word. This is how i know you dont actually read to comprehend the verse, you just pull it up on google to pick out something you can comment on/dont like.

Romans 1:26-29 (actually read the verse and comprehend it)

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil..."

BOLD is for the answers to your question.
1.) The verse is talking about the same group of people: "they".
2.)The verse says what natural relations are "men with women".
3.)We know what they did- they had "passion" for each other of the same sex. Passion is another word for sexual/romantic activity, hence the term "passion mark" being another term for "hickey".
4.)Then it goes on to say that these same group of people because of "their" actions have a debased mind, that they were given up to. These people (who the verse is talking about) are filled with unrighteousness and evil.

Homosexuality is contrary to nature, it ought not to be done, and it goes against acknowledging God. It says so right there. Prove me wrong.


You didn't answer my question. You just attempt to show that homosexuality is unnatural.

What is natural human behavior? What is unnatural human behavior? It's a meaningless term if homosexuality is unnatural and everything else possible in existence is natural. Is autoerotica natural? Is surfing the web natural? Is agriculture natural? How is this determined?

2.)This topic is telling an important part about avoiding hell and getting into heaven- dont be homosexual. An extension of- dont do sexual immorality, period. If you know a better way, please tell us, oh enlightened one.


Just saying that acting like a total dick to a group of people, in an attempt to make them more like you, is the exact opposite of what works. And yes, far too often Christians try to suppress and reduce homosexuals, making them feel sub-human, which instead of accomplishing what they want to do just results in homosexuals feeling bitter towards Christians. That's my point.

And if homosexuality is immoral, there should be a better reason than "it's in this book." God wouldn't make a meaningless edict, right? So there must be a REASON it's immoral, right? I've yet to hear it so far--oh sure, I've heard "it's unnatural" but no one has defined that word yet. I do a thousand unnatural things every day by my reckoning, and you do them too.
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"It's hard to reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into."
--JonWood