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Just another topic about the homosexuality and the Bible.

#401OrangeWizardPosted 3/18/2014 10:55:35 AM
Morgasaurus posted...

And that doesn't happen overnight.

Doesn't matter. It happens.

But I have a question, what about "gateway sins"? Is it possible to sin in X so much that your conscience gets drowned out, so that when you start sinning in Y, you don't feel guilt at all?


Those are both special cases.

Well how are we supposed to know what's a "rule" and what's an exception?


Because it would be sinful to obey them and, well, sin.

Is disobeying TCoG not a sin?

By definition, yes. A hypothetical CoG should be perfect and never ask someone to sin for them.


Going back to the real CoG as portrayed in the bible, were they not imperfect humans, prone to sin and error?

So what about King Saul, who, anointed by God, and thus, a representative of the CoG, sought to kill David?



In theory.

What brings you to this theory? Is it the "everybody who feels guilt can be reformed" thing?

So you aren't perfect. I'm not perfect. You can't point out any perfect human on earth, yet you maintain that it's possible to be perfect?

So what about 1 John 1:8-10? Anyone who states that they have no sin is misleading themselves, and anyone who says they have not sinned is a liar.

If you recognize that you will sin in the future, doesn't that mean that you recognize that sinning, in general, is something unreformable?

How can you say that "I will sin again, but sin is reformable", but not say "I will be attracted to my own gender again, but homosexuality is reformable?"
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The head is backwards.
The head is backwards
#402OrangeWizardPosted 3/18/2014 10:55:38 AM
You asked me if I ever felt the desire to "change."

And that question is answered with a "yes" or a "no", not a sermon about how conversion therapy "doesn't work".


That is not contrition by my logic because by my logic homosexuality and same-sex relationships are not sinful.


You never mentioned anything before about X needing to be a sin before you can be repentant about doing X. You only said that if you feel guilt and offer contrition over X, then X can be reformed.

I already stated this in an earlier topic. Sin is a sufficient condition for guilt, but not a necessary condition for guilt. Guilt can come from a great many other things.

For example if X and Y are best friends and have a car accident due to a deer where X dies and Y survives, Y will have survivor's guilt despite having not been at fault for the accident.

Homosexuals in many traditional Churches feel guilty because there is significant social pressure for them to be straight. That guilt is not coming from sin.


So, to repeat myself since you didn't address it: what of your conscience argument? If it's possible to feel guilt over things that one should not feel guilty about, then the conscience isn't as accurate as you say it is. And if the conscience CAN feel guilty over things that are NOT sins, who is the say that the conscience can NOT feel guilty over things that ARE sins?
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The head is backwards.
The head is backwards
#403MorgasaurusPosted 3/18/2014 2:49:13 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
But I have a question, what about "gateway sins"? Is it possible to sin in X so much that your conscience gets drowned out, so that when you start sinning in Y, you don't feel guilt at all?


I can't say for certain, but it seems to me that any time you go to a "higher tier" of sin then you should feel something.

Well how are we supposed to know what's a "rule" and what's an exception?


Prayer, reflection, conscience, intuition, etc.

Is disobeying TCoG not a sin?


Not if they ask you to sin. Because clearly sinning is sinning, and if TCoG asks you to sin, it cannot be sinful to disobey them because it if were then you would be in a no win scenario. You would have a choice between sinning and sinning.

Going back to the real CoG as portrayed in the bible, were they not imperfect humans, prone to sin and error?


Sure, but that doesn't mean they asked someone to sin for them.

So what about King Saul, who, anointed by God, and thus, a representative of the CoG, sought to kill David?


What about him? What's your question?

What brings you to this theory? Is it the "everybody who feels guilt can be reformed" thing?

One may repent all sin and avoid sin as much as possible. If done entirely correct, one can live entirely free of sin.

So you aren't perfect. I'm not perfect. You can't point out any perfect human on earth, yet you maintain that it's possible to be perfect?

The Scriptures tell us to be perfect. It must be possible.

So what about 1 John 1:8-10? Anyone who states that they have no sin is misleading themselves, and anyone who says they have not sinned is a liar.

And what about 1 John 1: 7? Context is important here. The message of the verse is that we should seek forgiveness for sin when we have sinned rather than claiming we are without sin. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to be living free of sin for some amount of time.

If you recognize that you will sin in the future, doesn't that mean that you recognize that sinning, in general, is something unreformable?

I may sin in the future. I may not. Granted, the former is much more likely. Sinful behavior is reformable.

How can you say that "I will sin again, but sin is reformable", but not say "I will be attracted to my own gender again, but homosexuality is reformable?"

Because homosexuality is not sinful.
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#404MorgasaurusPosted 3/18/2014 2:49:15 PM
OrangeWizard posted...
And that question is answered with a "yes" or a "no", not a sermon about how conversion therapy "doesn't work".


You poked the bear. Deal with it.

You never mentioned anything before about X needing to be a sin before you can be repentant about doing X. You only said that if you feel guilt and offer contrition over X, then X can be reformed.


We started talking about all of this madness in the context of what is considered sinful behavior. In fact, I believe it started with serial killers.

So, to repeat myself since you didn't address it: what of your conscience argument?


What of it? Everyone has the Law of God written on their hearts. Everyone innately feels guilt for sinful behavior.

If it's possible to feel guilt over things that one should not feel guilty about, then the conscience isn't as accurate as you say it is.


Why?

And if the conscience CAN feel guilty over things that are NOT sins, who is the say that the conscience can NOT feel guilty over things that ARE sins?


Every logic teacher ever because ( A => B ) => ( B => A ) is called a converse error.

All sin causes guilt, and not all guilt is caused by sin. It's pretty much that simple.
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#405OrangeWizardPosted 3/18/2014 3:43:18 PM
Morgasaurus posted...

I can't say for certain, but it seems to me that any time you go to a "higher tier" of sin then you should feel something.


What about a lower tier, or a tier on the same level of sin?


Prayer, reflection, conscience, intuition, etc.

So nothing you have a solid basis for, in other words.

Not if they ask you to sin. Because clearly sinning is sinning, and if TCoG asks you to sin, it cannot be sinful to disobey them because it if were then you would be in a no win scenario. You would have a choice between sinning and sinning.


I still don't see your basis explaining how disobeying TCoG isn't a sin. It seems to me you just don't like being in a no-win scenario.


Sure, but that doesn't mean they asked someone to sin for them.

Being imperfect, they probably did. Probably not deliberately, though.
Think of all the people Saul asked to help him kill David.
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The head is backwards.
The head is backwards
#406OrangeWizardPosted 3/18/2014 3:43:37 PM


What about him? What's your question?



Was he not the anointed of God? Did he not try to wrongfully kill David?


One may repent all sin and avoid sin as much as possible. If done entirely correct, one can live entirely free of sin.


Okay, those are claims. What's behind those claims?


The Scriptures tell us to be perfect. It must be possible.


OR, your interpretation of that verse is wrong.

That doesn't mean it isn't possible to be living free of sin for some amount of time.

I don't dispute that. You probably don't sin in your sleep, or if you just sit there, not thinking or doing anything.

I don't think it makes you perfect, or even temporarily perfect, and it certainly does not mean you are reformed.
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The head is backwards.
The head is backwards
#407OrangeWizardPosted 3/18/2014 5:50:57 PM
Morgasaurus posted...

Why?

Because your conscience, which is supposed to distinguish right from wrong, is inaccurate.

Every logic teacher ever because ( A => B ) => ( B => A ) is called a converse error.

All sin causes guilt, and not all guilt is caused by sin. It's pretty much that simple.


The conscience detects sin. If it detects something that is not a sin, it is inaccurate. If it is inaccurate, then it undermines your argument.
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The head is backwards.
The head is backwards
#408BashyMcFetusPosted 3/18/2014 11:44:57 PM
C_Mat posted...
No, in post #269, you changed your argument. You never acknowledged an earlier mistake. There is no shame in making a mistake, but the fact that you've went out of your way to avoid admitting it points to a much bigger problem, and that's the reason I'm not going to bother discussing anything else with you.

If you refuse to admit a mistake as minor as that, I don't hold out much hope that you'll ever admit losing the larger argument if I ever did prove your interpretation wrong.

Anyone else find the lengths C_Mat will go to end a conversation hilarious?
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By Evolution, I mean Evolution. As in "I look different from my parents because of evolution" ~OrangeWizard
#409C_Mat(Topic Creator)Posted 3/19/2014 7:33:08 AM
I actually really wanted to finish the argument, but it feels like a waste of time talking with someone who lacks the humility to admit defeat.
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#410childofdelightPosted 3/19/2014 10:26:14 AM
So, why then are you judging him? Are you being humble?

Wouldn't something that is true be able to withstand scrutiny?
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