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Approach to religions and worldviews

#11EastsideslingerPosted 3/16/2014 6:22:01 AM
Honestly I think some of it has to do with the fact that it focuses entirely too much on the feel good aspect of being a believer. It's like some kind of twisted form of "Get it now and pay for it later" wherein you profess your belief and are awash with elation and joy and then suddenly you remember you still have to live the same dreary life you had been. Granted that's not always the case, and certainly the change in mindset could help certain people but then again this could just as well back fire on anyone looking for the get happiness now notion they either lead themselves (or were lead to believe) they would get out of becoming a believer.
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#12GuideToTheDarkPosted 3/16/2014 6:23:14 AM
He has a thing against religion that screws his arguments.
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#13Dathrowed1Posted 3/16/2014 7:17:51 AM(edited)
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/view-future-tract/view-the-future/

This is the tract that Jon is talking about. It's obvious that asking someone how they view the future is trying to convince them to trust the bible. In seriousness it's obvious the JWs couldn't reach him a better way (he might live in a gated community). So they have no idea what Jon believes, there is material for them to adjust. But really Jon just took this as an opportunity to rant his prejudices against Christians.
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#14SSj4WingzeroPosted 3/16/2014 6:43:15 AM
Eastsideslinger posted...
Honestly I think some of it has to do with the fact that it focuses entirely too much on the feel good aspect of being a believer. It's like some kind of twisted form of "Get it now and pay for it later" wherein you profess your belief and are awash with elation and joy and then suddenly you remember you still have to live the same dreary life you had been. Granted that's not always the case, and certainly the change in mindset could help certain people but then again this could just as well back fire on anyone looking for the get happiness now notion they either lead themselves (or were lead to believe) they would get out of becoming a believer.


I'd argue that any doctrine leading someone to believe that gratification is imminent is probably not based in the actual Bible, but that's a whole other story.
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#15EastsideslingerPosted 3/16/2014 7:34:18 AM
SSj4Wingzero posted...
Eastsideslinger posted...
Honestly I think some of it has to do with the fact that it focuses entirely too much on the feel good aspect of being a believer. It's like some kind of twisted form of "Get it now and pay for it later" wherein you profess your belief and are awash with elation and joy and then suddenly you remember you still have to live the same dreary life you had been. Granted that's not always the case, and certainly the change in mindset could help certain people but then again this could just as well back fire on anyone looking for the get happiness now notion they either lead themselves (or were lead to believe) they would get out of becoming a believer.


I'd argue that any doctrine leading someone to believe that gratification is imminent is probably not based in the actual Bible, but that's a whole other story.


Certainly that can apply to any religious belief. I'm not implying that it's the sole purview of christianity but certainly seems to play into charismatic style of leadership (which is big in televangilism)
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#16SSj4WingzeroPosted 3/16/2014 7:50:07 AM
Yeah, I mean, I think even a cursory read of the Bible can pretty much reveal that you probably shouldn't expect God to give you wealth or treat you well. It basically says that followers of Jesus will be persecuted and that rich men can't enter the kingdom of God, so I'm wondering how that gets transformed into the prosperity gospel or the feel-good gospel so common in America nowadays.
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#17JonWood007Posted 3/16/2014 10:21:43 AM(edited)

Then JonWood comes in and posts a really long bit about how there's no proof for Christianity and uses the word "evidence" way too many times. I mean, yeah, believe whatever you want, but that's not really the point of the topic. It makes him sound like a Dawkins evangelist. It'd be like if I made a topic asking about whether McDonald's lack of market share in a particular city was due to its business strategy and a poster just came in and talked about how meat is murder. Yeah, I mean, that might be the reason some people don't go to McDonald's, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is McDonald's business strategy. At least, that's the way I see it.


Actually, this is more like asking why people stop going to mcdonalds and someone responds by saying "your food sucks, it has nothing to do with marketing, it has to do with what you're selling to people."

Look, I know it;'s very easy to get confused as a christian as to why young people are becoming less religious, but you're not gonna understand the problem until you actually SEE the issue as someone who does not believe. You can write off my response as trolling, but I'm giving you an alternate perspective as an ex-believer. No one cares about how "hip" Christianity is.

Seriously, I was curious about the issues of why people were leaving the church as a christian myself. I even wrote a mock research proposal looking at life cycle effects and the politization of religion before. I was clueless myself. And then I lost my faith and learned to see the issue from a different perspective. You can hate on the medicine I try to give you, but it doesn't change the fact that I offer a valid point.

If you wanna market christianity, you need to convince people that they should become a christian. If you can't adequately answer the question why should anyone be a christian, you can't convince people to be a christian.

Answer me this: why should anyone be a Christian?

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/view-future-tract/view-the-future/


Yes, that's the one.


This is the tract that Jon is talking about. It's obvious that asking someone how they view the future is trying to convince them to trust the bible. In seriousness it's obvious the JWs couldn't reach him a better way (he might live in a gated community). So they have no idea what Jon believes, there is material for them to adjust. But really Jon just took this as an opportunity to rant his prejudices against Christians.


Actually no, they've rang our doorbell before and we told them we weren't interested. They obviously had no idea who I even was though...they just had "resident of (my address)."

But really...how do we view the future. Well here are a bunch of Bible verses about the future! Why should we trust what the Bible says? Here are Bible verses to answer that?

You need to believe in the Bible already for these tracts to work. Otherwise you're not going to connect with your target audience.

Believe it or not I'm actually trying to HELP you market Christianity, as an ex-Christian here. You can rag on me for hating Christianity all you want or something, but the truth is, you guys really DO need a little tough love to understand how to connect to nonChristians. How do you expect to connect to nonChristians if you approach nonbelievers from your bubble perspective? No, you need to understand what actual nonChristians think if you want to be convincing to us. If you don't understand me, you can't convince me. And the fact that you guys think I'm just hating on Christianity shows you have no clue how nonbelievers think. I have a hint for you...you're not gonna find the answer in the Bible or talking to other believing Christians!
#18OrangeWizardPosted 3/16/2014 10:37:58 AM(edited)
Some tracts assume belief in the bible, God, or both. Some tracts don't. The particular tract that you got was not meant for a "nonChristian", as you define them.

Excuse us for not being able to read your mind and present you with a tract tailored to your specific beliefs through the mail. I mean, we tried to get to know you, but you told us you weren't interested.
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#19JonWood007Posted 3/16/2014 11:32:53 AM(edited)
Maybe you should stop coming to my door? My parents already have a religion they're happy with, and I'm happy to be religion-less. And I think I politely told you that once, and my parents expressed disinterest several times.

EDIT: And if you DO send us stuff....don't literally go full "napkin religion" on me. That si why I brought that tract up. It's a terrible tract. It makes a lot of sense if you're a believer who already reveres the Bible and takes it at its word, but it comes off as a form of "bubble evangelism" to us nonbelievers, and perhaps even to some believers who dont take the Bible that seriously or have a different interpretation as well. That was my complaint...I'm arguing against people who try to evangelize from a bubble. Who literally don't and CAN"T understand what their targets actually think, because they are so wrapped up in their bubble belief system that they literally can't comprehend other points of view. When you go all napkin religion, that's what it sounds like to me, and that's just how lots of believers seem to think when they wonder about why people don't believe. I mean, such tracts may make PERFECT sense to a fellow believer, but not to a nonbeliever.

When you trust your belief system, or the Bible to tell you about nonbelievers more than the actual PERSPECTIVES of nonbelievers, you're never going to understand us. You need to look from the outside in, not the inside out. That's what I'm trying to say.

You guys can't even understand ME. How many times have you guys ever called me prideful or hateful? You even do it right in this topic! When you character assassinate and blame the very people you want to outreach to, how are you ever gonna convince us? You need to stop focusing on what's "wrong" with us when we actually try to tell you what you're doing wrong, and learn to actually market to people properly.

Remember, when it comes to marketing, the customer is always right. Asking if your music is too cheesy is a nice first step, but it's still rife with bubble thinking. You need to really take a long, hard OBJECTIVE look at yourselves if you're gonna convince others.
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#20Moorish_IdolPosted 3/16/2014 11:20:29 AM
I'll give my thoughts as an ex-Christian too.

First, yeah, Christian music sucks. I hated it as a Christian too. Not only because of the message bring unrealistic... but it all sounds the same, lol.

I don't think that's a major reason for the decline, however.

I'd personally put Christians as the reason for Christianity's decline. There are far too many vocal Christians who come across as hateful. Not only in media, but in our own communities.

I think people more often respond to showing than telling. That is, show people why they should be Christians. Don't tell them how perfect life with the Holy Spirit is or how wrong they are without Him or how much the Bible says the Bible is true.

To use the old cliche, actions speak louder than words.

Julian_Caesar posted...
Plenty of Christians tell homeless people that God will help them, maybe they even volunteer at soup kitchens. Few of those (at least in suburbia) have ever chosen to be homeless, as Jesus did. I can't honestly say I could ever choose that, either :(

I think these volunteering Christians are actually the best part of the religion. And if I were to ever reconvert, it'd likely be because of the actions of people like them.