This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

Approach to religions and worldviews

#41WelshGamer82Posted 3/17/2014 9:03:04 AM
I have no idea as to what music people are referring. We sing a mixture of modern songs and classic hymns in our church (I like both), but I don't know if those modern songs are the same ones as the ones people in this topic are decrying.
#42JonWood007Posted 3/17/2014 9:08:39 AM
Probably the "new" Christian music, which is a poor attempt at pop culture. As opposed to the classic old school hymns which actually carry a tune and sound...good.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 8 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HDD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HDD | W7 | 1366x768
#43kts123Posted 3/17/2014 9:34:52 AM
You say coming to terms with God's methods aren't pleasant, but I'll say neither is realizing the truth, and the truth is Christianity is one big mind game. See the comment I posted in that other topic not long ago about the brainwashing involved. There was once a time where I thought nothing to convince me Christianity was false....but all you really need to do is THINK about it hard enough, and notice all the inconsistencies and cracks and the like. This is why Christianity encourages people not to think.



There's the day you realize your parents aren't perfect, and you begin to trust your own reasoning. Then, if you're lucky, there's the day you realize you aren't perfect. I was at one time wholly convinced there was no God, and I did so under the banner of "education," and "science," just like you. I even sat around debating Christians, rolling my eyes at them for how brainwashed they were.

Then I got kicked off my high horse by a woman. It took a heart break to put my life in perspective -- an early twenty something looking for a mate, meanwhile thinking he can "figure out the mysteries of the universe." It's absurd, really. You are not special, you are not magically empowered by the Internet, you are not part of some special forward thinking generation. You are just another young person trying to go through life and make sense of things, just like me, just like all the Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists. One generation got a big head about the printing press, now another gets a big head about the Internet. The means of transferring knowledge may be new, but the acquisition still relies on the same old grey matter passed down from generation to generation.

One generation demanded a "sign," a new generation demands evidence. God still uses the same method He was using before we found science, and He'll keep using it, because it has worked for every person in every generation from every place in life since He created us. God and His dealings with us predate science, they predate mathematics, they predate written language, they predate intellectualism and universities and schools. His methods worked then, they work now, and they will work tomorrow.
---
Chess!
http://www.chess.com/members/view/KyleTS
#44JonWood007Posted 3/17/2014 9:48:15 AM
Then I got kicked off my high horse by a woman. It took a heart break to put my life in perspective -- an early twenty something looking for a mate, meanwhile thinking he can "figure out the mysteries of the universe."


Ah, the plot thinkens, don't you know how women can totally cloud your thinking on these kinds of subjects? All those hormones and brain chemicals. The evolutionary drive.

One generation got a big head about the printing press, now another gets a big head about the Internet. The means of transferring knowledge may be new, but the acquisition still relies on the same old grey matter passed down from generation to generation.


We stand on the shoulders of giants. Data transmission helps us acquire more knowledge, and critical thinking and science helps us make sense of it. We are acquiring more and more knowledge, and applying it more and more as well. Look around you. That same old grey matter led to the computer you are typing on, and the internet that allows you to talk to me.


One generation demanded a "sign," a new generation demands evidence. God still uses the same method He was using before we found science, and He'll keep using it, because it has worked for every person in every generation from every place in life since He created us. God and His dealings with us predate science, they predate mathematics, they predate written language, they predate intellectualism and universities and schools. His methods worked then, they work now, and they will work tomorrow.


Except, to be blunt, it relies on ignorance.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 8 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HDD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HDD | W7 | 1366x768
#45the_hedonistPosted 3/17/2014 10:09:41 AM
rabidchickenofdeath posted...
Serious question.

Why does JonWood get so much disrespect around here? In the couple of topics I've seen he's stated his points very reasonably and concisely but other users have just written him off as if he was a troll or something.

I'll admit that I'm a bit new to this board but I recognize Jon from Politics and he makes a lot of good points over there. I've haven't seen him disrespect anyone over on this board but he seems to be regarded as a problem poster.

Am I missing something?


What others have said. Basically, he writes really long posts, but is very repetitive. Not only repetitive in a single post, but repetitive across multiple posts. It doesn't matter what topic it is in - he brings up the same thing over and over again. It gets kinda old pretty quick. Also, his constant appeal to his college education gets old. He's not the only one to have taken college religion courses. Last, he doesn't always quite seem to understand what people are saying. He may get the gist, but he rarely understands nuanced positions. This topic is a perfect example...

JonWood007 posted...
I think the absolute biggest problem with Christianity is it's bubble mentality. And no offense, but you portray this somewhat just asking the questions you do. people leaving christianity has nothing to do with it being hip or not hip. Because this has no bearing on whether christianity is TRUE or not. It doesn't matter if christianity is the most boring as heck worldview there is, that has nothing to do with whether it's TRUE. Making Christianity "cool" does not answer the question of whether christianity is relevant, or true. If you want more people to be christian, go out there, and tell us why we should be christian. Give us EVIDENCE for your worldviews. Don't give us excuses, appeals to faith, rationalization, or other forms of evasion of the big (lack of an) elephant in the room. What EVIDENCE is there to convince people of Christianity. WHY should we be Christian?


If you read his post, Julian Caesar actually criticized evangelical Christianity's attempts to relate through pop culture.

The point is that Johnny Cash had appeal because he was authentic. He was real. His outward behavior matched up with what was going on in real life. He was not hypocritical. Long story short, it's a matter of truth. Inauthentic Christianity that attempts to grab people by being "cool" or by being positive is not appealing to people precisely because it is not authentic - it doesn't match up with what we know is true. And while we have a remarkable ability to deceive ourselves, many of us humans will experience uncomfortable cognitive dissonance when we know something to be false. To summarize: modern pop Christianity may be appealing to some because it is "cool," but it loses its appeal at the point that it is inauthentic, i.e. false.

kozlo100 posted...
One of my Christian friends is sort of bouncing around churches right now, trying to find a good fit for her. It's not just the music, but that is one aspect. She finds that style of music and the type of worship that typically goes with it gimmicky and kind of false. Almost like they're trying to trick her into worshiping, which she doesn't want. She just wants a church where she can go and worship like a normal person, and be treated like a reasonable adult.


Obviously, there are many factors when considering a denomination, but I would point her in the direction of a more liturgical setting. Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican. My experience in those churches has been much more meaningful and thoughtful worship
---
"Why should I gain from His reward? I cannot give an answer.
But this I know with all my heart - His wounds have paid my ransom."
#46kozlo100Posted 3/17/2014 10:12:44 AM
I'm not sure she wants to go that far in the liturgical direction, and I don't think she's looking to hop denominations. She just wants a Lutheran church that's less edgy. Those are apparently a little hard to find in our neck of the woods.
---
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#47JonWood007Posted 3/17/2014 10:32:01 AM
The point is that Johnny Cash had appeal because he was authentic. He was real. His outward behavior matched up with what was going on in real life. He was not hypocritical. Long story short, it's a matter of truth. Inauthentic Christianity that attempts to grab people by being "cool" or by being positive is not appealing to people precisely because it is not authentic - it doesn't match up with what we know is true. And while we have a remarkable ability to deceive ourselves, many of us humans will experience uncomfortable cognitive dissonance when we know something to be false. To summarize: modern pop Christianity may be appealing to some because it is "cool," but it loses its appeal at the point that it is inauthentic, i.e. false.


And while it's a problem, it's not THE problem with Christianity. There's more to it than just inauthentic pop bands.
---
Desktop: Phenom II X4 965 | 8 GB DDR3 | GTX 580 | 1 TB HDD | W7 | 650W Antec | 1600x900
Laptop: A6 3400m | 4 GB DDR3 | HD 6520g | 500 GB HDD | W7 | 1366x768
#48KNessJMPosted 3/17/2014 10:49:17 AM
Yeah, I mean, only if you ignore the "delight yourself in the Lord" part, though.

Plus taking that verse to mean that God gives you whatever you ask for is pretty silly just by looking at historical context. Or are the modern-day Christians just believing that the followers of Christ killed by Diocletian just didn't pray as hard as Joel Osteen's audience?


Do you really expect the majority of your everyday folks who say they believe in God and Jesus to understand the nuanced and informed interpretation of what it means to "delight in the Lord"? Or to have an understanding of the historical events throughout the development of Christianity? Because that kind of knowledge among believers is pretty rare in my experience. Most people I know post Bible verses on Facebook, pray once a day or so, go to church every once in a while, and start talking about God more often when they're going through stressful times in their life. Although it should be noted that I live in what was most recently declared the most non-religious city in America, so take that for what you will.
---
Quote of the Week: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't prove that anything is real."
#49DarkContractorPosted 3/17/2014 12:33:43 PM
i love it when kts testifies.

he takes it so seriously but everything he says is just hilarious
#50Polish_CrusaderPosted 3/17/2014 1:04:22 PM
I love it when non believers are very specific because its a lot easier to make progress in conversation. I've literally come across every single line he has said and refuted it every time. Lets examine this piece by piece:



1) Politicization of religion. The marriage of the religious right and the republican party is hurting religion.


-This is very legit. Especially in America. One of the many reasons i left the republican party. Theres a simple solution to this which is exactly what i did: I became a registered independent and Im largely non political. Because no matter who gets into office the same stuff gets passed and the same people profit the money. GET OUT OF POLITICS, CHRISTIANS!

2) Extremism in general. This is kinda related to #1, but when you got crazies like pat robertson and fred phelps, that turns people off.


-This isnt really specific, so its a lot harder to respond. I dont know who fred phelps is, and i havent watched pat robertson in years. A simple solution to this is stop going crazy over televangelists. I dont watch any of them, because everything they say i can find in the bible and already have. Televangelists is not a significant representation of american christians because theres so many of them and all of them have their little niche areas (like joel osteen in the houston area). This isnt as big of a deal as #1 or #3 are.

3) LACK OF EVIDENCE. Christians do a terrible job defending their worldview. When you come right down to it, there's no reason to believe it's true and when you put Christianity under scrutiny, it turns into a revolving door of excuses, rationalizations, and logical fallacies. In addition, attempts to market christianity are totally out of touch with how nonbelievers think, and apparently seem to be written in an echo chamber. You literally need to believe this stuff to actually have it impact you. otherwise it just comes off as garbage.


-This is by far the overused cliche punchline by the modern day non believer. I deleted the other stuff cuz its just rambling. Anyway, there is a ton of evidence to support the God of the bible, you just have to pursue it for yourself. Can you get a degree by sitting at home all day on your butt eating potatoe chips? No you have to go to school and study he material. God gave us dominion over this earth and all thats on it living and non living. He is not going to send angels to whip us with chains to make us do things. Thats not how God works, He even says so. As for direct evidence, there is not enough page space, but there is historical evidence, circumstantial evidence, and the best of all miracles. The first two are a lot harder to decipher because it involves excavating sites in the middle east (which has proved a lot int he past few decades). Miracles are what got me back into God. There is thousands of testimony's on miracles, me, my mom, hundreds of youtube videos. Pursue them yourself, but you have to do what the bible says to get them. You can't complain that is "not enough evidence for you" because that is what the bible says. If you are unwilling to do what a book says that tells you how to get what you want (evidence for God), than you cannot complain that you dont have what you are looking for (evidence for God).
---
"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash