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In light of the Fred Phelp's excommunication and inevitable death..

#111C_MatPosted 3/25/2014 1:09:52 PM
kozlo100 posted...
What kind of answer would you find acceptable here? I gave one earlier, does it work for you?


I think the acceptable answer is that there is no logical reason someone should feel guilty for another person receiving the just punishment for their sins. I'm waiting for splodeymissile to arrive at that conclusion or prove it wrong.

I'm not saying it's wrong to, or that we wouldn't feel that sense of "survivor's guilt" (as someone put it earlier), but if there's no logical reason that we should, then I don't think there's anything wrong with God somehow taking away our ability to do that in heaven.
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#112splodeymissilePosted 3/25/2014 1:10:35 PM
If someone is saved on their death bed, meaning they basically accept the Gospel message at the last second, then that's the only person who fits into the category you're describing (the one "good" thing they do). Otherwise I don't know what kind of person you're describing.


No, that's the one. Should he go to heaven?
What kind of person are you talking about, this "hero" who only ever committed the sin of unbelief? The person you're describing is a fantasy; nobody has committed just one sin. You're lumping people into black and white categories.


Fine, lets give him a small number of comparatively trivial sins. And lets say he even apologized for them, but had nothing to do with God. Should he still go to hell?

Your first and last sentences are correct.


And does that seem fair to you?

I doubt it. You don't seem qualified to provide eternal punishment.

So why should you feel sorry for people in hell?


Its not a matter of qualifications. Does the basic idea, regardless of who's actually condemning you, seem fair and just?

And we've shifted the goalposts a bit, moving from guilt to feeling sorry. That's probably a far more accurate way of describing my views, so we'll go with it: I feel empathy when I know people are suffering.Doubly so, if I feel they don't deserve it. Triply so, if it can't end. I'm sorry if I'm not sociopathic enough.
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#113mrplainswalkerPosted 3/25/2014 1:15:45 PM
C_Mat posted...
And my religious beliefs are irrelevant to the points I'm making. I don't know exactly what you mean by my standard of evidence; can you explain that?


That's the difference though. Your religious beliefs are not irrelevant to the points your making. You are saying that God has provided sufficient evidence for Christianity. How is that not specifically tied to Christianity?

I believe because of personal evidences (which you don't have access to). However, I'm simultaneously claiming that there is sufficient general evidence to believe in God (which everyone has access to). So there's nothing disingenuous about my point.


You're saying that evidence that is not what convinces you should be enough to convince everyone else. That's wholly disingenuous.

Christians are not talking about a heaven that nobody every gets to go to.


I should have clarified that nobody who ever lives on earth as a human gets to go there.

Is your first premise a personal belief or a provable fact?


Of course it's not a provable fact. It's a premise. However, it's basic enough that I would have a legitimate fear of safety if I knew somebody around me didn't adhere to it. What if they murdered my son because I cut them in line, all the while thinking it was completely just?
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#114splodeymissilePosted 3/25/2014 1:16:24 PM
C_Mat posted...
kozlo100 posted...
What kind of answer would you find acceptable here? I gave one earlier, does it work for you?


I think the acceptable answer is that there is no logical reason someone should feel guilty for another person receiving the just punishment for their sins. I'm waiting for splodeymissile to arrive at that conclusion or prove it wrong.


You have yet to prove that eternal suffering is just punishment for any finite crime. Hence, my slapping example. And I would only feel guilt if I felt they were more deserving of heaven than me, as shown by the lazy worker example. Sympathy and empathy are more accurate words for my views.

I'm not saying it's wrong to, or that we wouldn't feel that sense of "survivor's guilt" (as someone put it earlier), but if there's no logical reason that we should, then I don't think there's anything wrong with God somehow taking away our ability to do that in heaven.


Its an issue of free will and it borders on mind rape. Now that I think about it, it reminds me of (spoilers for Lightning returns) Bhunivelze's plan to remove, well, everything human from humanity. Granted, God's unlikely to go that far (I hope), but its not too far off.
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#115kozlo100Posted 3/25/2014 1:17:27 PM
C_Mat posted...
I'm not saying it's wrong to, or that we wouldn't feel that sense of "survivor's guilt" (as someone put it earlier), but if there's no logical reason that we should, then I don't think there's anything wrong with God somehow taking away our ability to do that in heaven.


I think I'd like to hear your definition of 'should' in this context. Also, did you read my earlier objection? There are some points related to what you're saying here.
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#116C_MatPosted 3/27/2014 7:20:42 AM
splodeymissile posted...
No, that's the one. Should he go to heaven?


Yes. And we should be happy about it.

Fine, lets give him a small number of comparatively trivial sins. And lets say he even apologized for them, but had nothing to do with God. Should he still go to hell?


Yes. If you sin against God, your apology should have something to do with God.

If you slap me, it's not going to make much difference if you apologize to someone else for it.

And does that seem fair to you?


It seems more than fair to me. I think we're getting off easy. All the bad stuff we've done is wiped away just by asking forgiveness from God.

Its not a matter of qualifications. Does the basic idea, regardless of who's actually condemning you, seem fair and just?

And we've shifted the goalposts a bit, moving from guilt to feeling sorry. That's probably a far more accurate way of describing my views, so we'll go with it: I feel empathy when I know people are suffering. Doubly so, if I feel they don't deserve it. Triply so, if it can't end. I'm sorry if I'm not sociopathic enough.


Your original quote was "I'd rather feel guilt for the people in hell," so that's what I've been going with. But we can do "feeling sorry" instead.

Do you feel sorry for a child rapist serving a 20-year sentence in prison? If you don't, I have another question that will tie in with the hell issue.

And as for qualifications, yes, I do think it's possible to sin worthy of eternal condemnation depending on the person you sin against. Let me give you an illustration. If you punch some random person on the street, or if you punch a cop, or if you punch the President of the United States, would you receive the exact same level of punishment for all three of those actions?
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#117ThuggernautzPosted 3/27/2014 7:38:12 AM
C_Mat posted...
And as for qualifications, yes, I do think it's possible to sin worthy of eternal condemnation


You're a cruel human being and I hope you're never in a position to judge other people.
#118C_MatPosted 3/27/2014 8:07:01 AM
Don't worry, I probably won't be. You should be concerned about the God who is, though.
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#119Julian_CaesarPosted 3/27/2014 10:16:56 AM
Thuggernautz posted...
C_Mat posted...
And as for qualifications, yes, I do think it's possible to sin worthy of eternal condemnation


You're a cruel human being and I hope you're never in a position to judge other people.


The lengths to which people will go to assume the moral high ground, even while claiming to believe in a worldview which cannot logically support such a thing, is astounding.
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#120Dathrowed1Posted 3/27/2014 10:47:59 AM
C_Mat posted...
Don't worry, I probably won't be. You should be concerned about the God who is, though.


Not really, God's aim is to save not destroy.
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